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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 304944 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #100 on: March 18, 2025, 09:30:02 AM »

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So, EENS, means that no one will go straight to Heaven (be "saved" from the fires) who is outside the Church. It does not mean that a truly "just man" (as rare as they might be) cannot still go to Purgatory or "limbo" before eventually be allowed into Heaven after the Second Coming. Again, most people will not lead a just life and they will not have the true teaching and Sacraments to get them back on track when they fall. So being "outside the Church" is like living in a minefield. Very dangerous for the soul.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but for the above, there needs to be a clarification.


No baptized person can go to Limbo...this is only for the unbaptized/justified.
No unbaptized person can go to Purgatory...this is only for the baptized.

Plato, who was unbaptized, couldn't have been "saved"; he could've gone to limbo, at best.  
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Offline Angelus

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #101 on: March 18, 2025, 09:55:42 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 18, 2025, 09:30:02 AM
I agree with most of what you wrote, but for the above, there needs to be a clarification.


No baptized person can go to Limbo...this is only for the unbaptized/justified.
No unbaptized person can go to Purgatory...this is only for the baptized.

Plato, who was unbaptized, couldn't have been "saved"; he could've gone to limbo, at best. 

I agree. Limbo (whatever it is) is for the unbaptized, "just" person with limited "light." That unbaptized person will not have the benefits of Purgatory (correctly understood). He will be stuck in "limbo" until God, in his mercy, decides to "release the prisoners."

The baptized, "just" Catholic, with temporal debt remaining, will spend a time in Purgatory and proceed to Heaven after his "temporal punishment" is paid off. 

Correct. Plato could not have been "saved." But he was "just," and justice has its own reward [Proverbs 11:18].
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #102 on: March 18, 2025, 10:09:20 AM »
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I agree. Limbo (whatever it is) is for the unbaptized, "just" person with limited "light." That unbaptized person will not have the benefits of Purgatory (correctly understood). He will be stuck in "limbo" until God, in his mercy, decides to "release the prisoners."
No.  The "Limbo of the Just" was temporary, for the Old Testament 'saints'.  It ended when Christ ascended into Heaven and took all of them with him.

The current "Limbo" is part of hell, the uppermost part.  It will have no end.  No one who goes to "Limbo" will ever enter heaven or go anywhere else. 

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The baptized, "just" Catholic, with temporal debt remaining, will spend a time in Purgatory and proceed to Heaven after his "temporal punishment" is paid off.
Correct, because Purgatory is a temporal place.  When time ends, so will Purgatory.

The 4 last things -- death, judgement, heaven, hell.  Limbo is part of hell, which is why it remains forever.  Purgatory is a pathway to heaven, which is why it ends.

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Correct. Plato could not have been "saved." But he was "just," and justice has its own reward [Proverbs 11:18].
It is incorrect to call Plato (or any non-catholic) "just", because Scripture's use of the word "just" means that a person is "justified before God", i.e. has sanctifying grace.  No unbaptized person can be "just".  And any rewards do not apply to them.

And we can't say that Limbo is a reward, for the true reward of heaven is to behold God, which those in Limbo cannot do (and will never be able to).

Heaven = saved
Hell = damned
Limbo = not damned

Limbo isn't a reward; it's a non-punishment.  Two different things.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #103 on: March 18, 2025, 10:52:58 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 18, 2025, 10:09:20 AM
No.  The "Limbo of the Just" was temporary, for the Old Testament 'saints'.  It ended when Christ ascended into Heaven and took all of them with him.

The current "Limbo" is part of hell, the uppermost part.  It will have no end.  No one who goes to "Limbo" will ever enter heaven or go anywhere else. 
Correct, because Purgatory is a temporal place.  When time ends, so will Purgatory.

The 4 last things -- death, judgement, heaven, hell.  Limbo is part of hell, which is why it remains forever.  Purgatory is a pathway to heaven, which is why it ends.
It is incorrect to call Plato (or any non-catholic) "just", because Scripture's use of the word "just" means that a person is "justified before God", i.e. has sanctifying grace.  No unbaptized person can be "just".  And any rewards do not apply to them.

And we can't say that Limbo is a reward, for the true reward of heaven is to behold God, which those in Limbo cannot do (and will never be able to).

Heaven = saved
Hell = damned
Limbo = not damned

Limbo isn't a reward; it's a non-punishment.  Two different things.

St. Thomas Aquinas does not think it is clear that "the limbo of the just was temporary." Here is what he says:

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q69.A4.C

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Accordingly, before Christ’s coming the limbo of hell and Abraham’s bosom were one place accidentally and not essentially: and consequently, nothing prevents Abraham’s bosom from remaining after Christ’s coming and from being altogether distinct from limbo, since things that are one accidentally may be parted from one another.

I suggest that you read the articles in the Summa in and around that one that I linked to. You will see that these matters are far from settled by the Church. I believe that you have overstated what the Church teaches.

After reading, I would appreciate it if you would come back and tell me if you think anything should be revised in your above statement. I don't want to be wrong in my interpretation. So I will welcome your correction.

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #104 on: March 18, 2025, 11:04:42 AM »
You're missing the point.  Whether or not "Abraham's Bosom" remains (as a place) is different from whether it is USED (as a holding place for people).  Some say the Garden of Eden still remains (as a place), but it's no longer used (except for maybe Enoch/Elias...waiting for antichrist...but it's not USED in the same way as Adam/Eve used it). 

The purpose of Abraham's Bosom was a temporary place of waiting til one can get to heaven...it was a waiting room for Christ.  It is no longer used for that purpose, as there is no longer anyone from the Old Testament who is "justified" but unbaptized.  And there is no longer a wait for a Redeemer.  So, with the termination of the Old Law, so the purpose of the OT Limbo is terminated.

St Thomas' comments on whether or not the place still remains, is irrelevant to my point.  The purpose is gone.
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