Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 14786 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 14719
  • Reputation: +6061/-904
  • Gender: Male
Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #180 on: June 04, 2018, 02:06:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2518
    • Reputation: +1039/-1106
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #181 on: June 04, 2018, 06:14:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Regarding Baptism and Justification, the Council of Trent clearly mentions a) reception of the sacrament, or b) a desire for it.

    a) sacramental baptism
    b) a baptism of desire
    Canon 4 refers to, as you even quoted yourself, Sacraments in general. Ergo for that canon to prove desire for Baptism can replace Baptism, then Matrimony of Desire or Holy Orders of Desire must also be doctrines according to your twisted logic. So your canon cannot be proof for Baptism of Desire. All it proves is that SOME Sacraments can be received in desire, namely Reconciliation. Trent explains Reconciliation can be received in desire in other canons while also explicitly stating that the waters of Baptism cannot be metaphorical. Ergo, your canon does not prove Baptism of Desire and Trent does not support it in any way(and in fact refutes it, as BOD requires metaphorical water). 


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-63
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #182 on: June 04, 2018, 09:35:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Canon 4 refers to, as you even quoted yourself, Sacraments in general. Ergo for that canon to prove desire for Baptism can replace Baptism, then Matrimony of Desire or Holy Orders of Desire must also be doctrines according to your twisted logic. So your canon cannot be proof for Baptism of Desire. All it proves is that SOME Sacraments can be received in desire, namely Reconciliation. Trent explains Reconciliation can be received in desire in other canons while also explicitly stating that the waters of Baptism cannot be metaphorical. Ergo, your canon does not prove Baptism of Desire and Trent does not support it in any way(and in fact refutes it, as BOD requires metaphorical water).
    I'm not going to argue your position.  I disagree.  The Church has repeatedly taught Baptism of Desire in very specific instances.  I am adhering to the long standing teaching by the Church.  There is nothing you can say to change that.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4579/-579
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #183 on: June 04, 2018, 10:41:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Church has repeatedly taught Baptism of Desire in very specific instances.  I am adhering to the long standing teaching by the Church.  

    Yes; but the teaching is permitted specifically in the case of catechumens who depart this life with vow and desire to have the water Baptism but by "some remediless necessity could not obtain it".

    Even if you would like to argue that such vow can be implicit; the dying person must need to have the knowledge of the Sacrament to begin with. He needs to know the truths necessary for salvation. For how one can desire something one absolutely knows nothing of? The Baptism of desire is the conscious "desire" of the water Baptism for an hypothetical, dying, and unfortunate catechumen.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4579/-579
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #184 on: June 04, 2018, 11:00:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The answer is no.

    The_Holy_Gospel_of_Jesus_Christ,_According_to_St._John
    This is explained by the Church in the quotes I provided.  To "enter into the kingdom of God" a man must "be born again of water and the Holy Ghost", which is the sacrament of Baptism.  Should the man be forestalled from receiving the sacrament of Baptism by an untimely death, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained, "such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism," because "God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."


    If you notice, right after this paragraph on Baptism, on the very same page, we find the timeless teaching of the Church that every Infidel, Jew, Pagan or Heretic, is judged already".

    The annotation goes:

    Quote
    18. Is judged already: He that believeth in Christ with Faith which worketh by charity (as the Apostle speaketh) shall not be condemned at the later day nor at the hour of his death. But the Infidel, be he Jew, Pagan, or Heretic, is already (if he die in his incredulity) by his own profession and sentence condemned, and shall not come to judgement either particular or general, to be discussed according to his works of mercy done or omitted. In which sense St. Paul saith that the obstinate heretic is condemned by his own judgement, preventing in himself, of his own free will, the sentence both of Christ and of the Church.  

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-63
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #185 on: June 05, 2018, 12:54:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes; but the teaching is permitted specifically in the case of catechumens who depart this life with vow and desire to have the water Baptism but by "some remediless necessity could not obtain it".

    Even if you would like to argue that such vow can be implicit; the dying person must need to have the knowledge of the Sacrament to begin with. He needs to know the truths necessary for salvation. For how one can desire something one absolutely knows nothing of? The Baptism of desire is the conscious "desire" of the water Baptism for an hypothetical, dying, and unfortunate catechumen.
    I agree with you.  In so far as Church teaching explains, a baptism of desire (though not unheard of) would be very rare indeed.  Thank you for your kind reply.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-63
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #186 on: June 05, 2018, 01:01:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If you notice, right after this paragraph on Baptism, on the very same page, we find the timeless teaching of the Church that every Infidel, Jew, Pagan or Heretic, is judged already".

    Here too, again, I agree with you.  With, of course, the understanding, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained,
    Quote
    "...the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #187 on: June 05, 2018, 07:43:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dear Mr. JohnAnthonyMarie,

    What is the reason for your obsession with teaching people that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation? What bothers you so much about the people who believe that one must be a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death to be saved, that it has become your life's mission to "convert" them?


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-63
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #188 on: June 05, 2018, 08:07:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Dear Mr. JohnAnthonyMarie,

    What is the reason for your obsession with teaching people that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation? What bothers you so much about the people who believe that one must be a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death to be saved, that it has become your life's mission to "convert" them?
    I feel neither obsessed nor bothered by defending truth.  In the same sense, this is neither a life mission nor a conversion attempt.  I am simply providing accurate information on a topic of discussion.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #189 on: June 05, 2018, 09:42:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Dear Mr. JohnAnthonyMarie,

    What is the reason for your obsession with teaching people that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation? What bothers you so much about the people who believe that one must be a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death to be saved, that it has become your life's mission to "convert" them?
    JohnAnthonyMarie answered - I feel neither obsessed nor bothered by defending truth.  In the same sense, this is neither a life mission nor a conversion attempt.  I am simply providing accurate information on a topic of discussion.


    LT asks: then "your truth, your accurate information", is that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation, that one does not have to be  a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved?





    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14719
    • Reputation: +6061/-904
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #190 on: June 05, 2018, 10:17:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • We must take it step by step for JAM......

    Canon IV: "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous ... let him be anathema."

    Per the above quote from Trent, the sacraments ("though all the sacraments are not indeed necessary for every individual") are necessary unto salvation. This is indisputable. You must accept this under pain of mortal sin as it is heresy to deny this dogma.


    Canon IV continued: And if any one saith that "without the sacraments, or without the desire thereof, men obtain from God, through faith alone, the grace of justification...let him be anathema."

    Per the above quote from Trent, the Church teaches that without the sacraments, or without the desire thereof, we do not obtain from God through faith alone, even the grace of justification, let alone eternal salvation. This quote condemns with anathema those who preach a BOD.

    Nowhere does Trent (the Church) teach that salvation is both necessary and not necessary without the sacrament, rather, it explicitly condemns with anathema those who say salvation is possible without the sacrament.

    Can we at least agree on that?







    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-63
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #191 on: June 05, 2018, 10:42:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • JohnAnthonyMarie answered - I feel neither obsessed nor bothered by defending truth.  In the same sense, this is neither a life mission nor a conversion attempt.  I am simply providing accurate information on a topic of discussion.

    LT asks: then "your truth, your accurate information", is that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation, that one does not have to be  a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved?
    your The truth, your the accurate information, would (again) be exactly as Saint Thomas Aquinas describes, "...the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."  I would agree that "people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism", but I, myself, could not go so far as saying without "belief in Christ and the Incarnation".  God alone knows.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #192 on: June 05, 2018, 10:47:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • your The truth, your the accurate information, would (again) be exactly as Saint Thomas Aquinas describes, "...the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."  I would agree that "people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism", but I, myself, could not go so far as saying without "belief in Christ and the Incarnation".  God alone knows.
    I asked you if this is what you believe, I do not need to know why you believe it, that is too long and complicated. Please just answer my question:

    LT asks: then "your truth, your accurate information", is that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation, that one does not have to be  a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved?

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-63
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #193 on: June 05, 2018, 10:49:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Canon IV: "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous ... let him be anathema."

    Per the above quote from Trent, the sacraments ("though all the sacraments are not indeed necessary for every individual") are necessary unto salvation. This is indisputable.

    Canon IV continued: And if any one saith that "without the sacraments, or without the desire thereof, men obtain from God, through faith alone, the grace of justification...let him be anathema."

    Per the above quote from Trent, the Church teaches that without the sacraments, or without the desire thereof, we do not obtain from God through faith alone, even the grace of justification, let alone eternal salvation. This quote condemns with anathema those who preach a BOD.

    Nowhere does Trent (the Church) teach that salvation is both necessary and not necessary without the sacrament, rather, it explicitly condemns with anathema those who say salvation is possible without the sacrament.

    Can we at least agree on that?
    no, I can't agree with your conjecture.  I have no difficulty whatsoever with Canon IV, but I disagree with you that it "condemns with anathema" baptism of desire.  In fact, the canon specifically says, "or without the desire thereof".
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-63
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #194 on: June 05, 2018, 10:54:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I asked you if this is what you believe, I do not need to know why you believe it, that is too long and complicated. Please just answer my question:

    LT asks: then "your truth, your accurate information", is that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation, that one does not have to be  a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved?
    I answered your question, but I'll repeat, no, that's not what I believe.  I said, "I would agree that 'people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism', but I could not go so far as saying without 'belief in Christ and the Incarnation'."  Like I said, God alone knows, and if God so wills it, anything can be done.
    Omnes pro Christo