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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23297 times)

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #145 on: June 01, 2018, 09:57:39 AM »
Asking for the third time.....

The words of God, Who is Truth Himself, said: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

So the only question anyone needs to answer, is: Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

Yes or no.
The answer is no. 

The_Holy_Gospel_of_Jesus_Christ,_According_to_St._John
Quote
3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
respondit Iesus amen amen dico tibi nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu non potest introire in regnum Dei

This is explained by the Church in the quotes I provided.  To "enter into the kingdom of God" a man must "be born again of water and the Holy Ghost", which is the sacrament of Baptism.  Should the man be forestalled from receiving the sacrament of Baptism by an untimely death, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained, "such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism," because "God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #146 on: June 01, 2018, 10:08:02 AM »
Nowhere does the Pope teach Pelagianism ... as you try to slander him as doing.

What the Pope is saying that by the virtue (aka power) of divine LIGHT and GRACE, such as these who place no obstacle to their salvation, can be saved.
Ladislaus, I don't appreciate your misrepresentations.

I quoted Pope Pius IX as follows:
Quote
"7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

I was very clear to state
Quote
"through" their invincible ignorance, not by it or with it, "in spite of it"


Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #147 on: June 01, 2018, 10:11:35 AM »
Radecki promotes heresy here.  No one can be saved THROUGH ignorance.  Ignorance cannot be salvific but merely exculpatory.  Even LoT used to concede this.  To claim that ignorance saves is nothing short of blatant Pelagian heresy.  It also contradicts Pius IX who teaches that they are saved not by their ignorance but by the action of DIVINE LIGHT.
You are misrepresenting what Father Radecki said.  Ignorance is not salvific, no one is saying that.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #148 on: June 01, 2018, 10:15:18 AM »
Quote
Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, on The Sacraments, Question 68 - Of Those Who Receive Baptism, Second Article - Whether a Man Can Be Saved without Baptism?

"I answer that, The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wish to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacraments, in regard to those who have the use of free-will.  Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.  Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

Ladislaus, Stubborn,
Do you accept what Saint Thomas Aquinas is saying in the quote above?
Yes or no

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #149 on: June 01, 2018, 10:23:08 AM »
Quote
Asking for the third time.....

The words of God, Who is Truth Himself, said: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

So the only question anyone needs to answer, is: Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

Yes or no.


The answer is no.

The_Holy_Gospel_of_Jesus_Christ,_According_to_St._John
This is explained by the Church in the quotes I provided.  To "enter into the kingdom of God" a man must "be born again of water and the Holy Ghost", which is the sacrament of Baptism.  Should the man be forestalled from receiving the sacrament of Baptism by an untimely death, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained, "such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism," because "God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."
So God said man cannot get to heaven without the sacrament of baptism, you say that you agree that man cannot get to heaven without the sacrament of baptism, then you say the Church explains God, who is Himself, truth, means something other than what He explicitly said.

So that leaves you with four possible conclusions.

1) God did not mean what He said.
2) God erred.
3) The Church erred in her explanation or did not mean what she said.
4) It was not the Church who explained away God's words. - (This is the correct conclusion).

A thing cannot both "be", and "not be" at the same time. Which is to say, God's words cannot say that the sacrament is both necessary and not necessary with the same words.

You agree that God said a man cannot get to heaven without the sacrament, what is it that prompts you to even look for a contradictory explanation?