Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 7536 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #120 on: May 31, 2018, 09:21:33 PM »
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  • If anyone states that Pius IX taught salvation BY invicible ignorance, that souls can remain in such a state, and be saved in such a state, you slander the Pope.

    You slander the Apostolic See.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #121 on: May 31, 2018, 09:41:03 PM »
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  • 99% of the people who promote BOD do not even believe that a desire to be baptized is necessary for salvation, nor a desire to be a Catholic, or belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity. They believe that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews etc., can be saved without "a desire to be baptized, nor a desire to be a Catholic, or belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity".

    If you are sincere as you say, ponder on that, for that is the REAL SUBJECT to be debated with the promoters of BOD, and not some catechumen who got run over by a bus on his way to be baptized.

    This needs to be addressed.

    Is there anyone left who will say that Baptism of Desire applies to those outside the visible bonds of the public profession of faith?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #122 on: May 31, 2018, 09:48:49 PM »
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  • One cannot persist in claiming Baptism of Desire applies to the pagan, the Jew, the Moslem, the heretic, the schismatic.
    I can't imagine who would.  Has this been said by the new church?  The 99% statistic is surely fictitious.  Near every reference I've seen to Baptism of Desire notes how extraordinary it would be.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #123 on: May 31, 2018, 09:54:33 PM »
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  • If anyone states that Pius IX taught salvation BY invicible ignorance, that souls can remain in such a state, and be saved in such a state, you slander the Pope.

    You slander the Apostolic See.

    Pope Pius IX said,
    Quote
    "7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."
       "8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom 'the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.'(Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.) The words of Christ are clear enough: 'If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;'(Mt 15.17.) 'He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;'(Lk 10.16.) 'He who does not believe will be condemned;'(Mk 16.16.) 'He who does not believe is already condemned;'(Jn 3.18.) 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.'(Lk 11.23.) The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned;'(Ti 3.11.) the Prince of the Apostles calls them 'false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.'(2 Pt 2.1.) "

    Specifically, that they "are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #124 on: May 31, 2018, 10:12:00 PM »
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  • Ok, thanks for your reply.  You don't have any authoritative references for your speculation.  You imagine in your own mind a contradiction and then expect others to adopt your views.  You offer nothing compelling other than your own view in contrast to well established Church teaching.  So, for myself, and I would hope others, the safer course would be to remain aligned with the long-standing Church teaching on the topic.  Thank you for the exercise.  Enjoy your time remaining.
    No problem.  My authority is the Church, not speculation of the Saints.  Bod is not a doctrine.  I imagine nothing in my own mind because I see the results of bod with my own eyes in fellow Catholics.  Not only is what I've said compelling, the dismissal of it without response is proof in and of itself that it hit a nerve.  Thanks back.  
    Have a wonderful evening. 


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #125 on: May 31, 2018, 10:14:42 PM »
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  • I can't imagine who would.  Has this been said by the new church?  The 99% statistic is surely fictitious.  Near every reference I've seen to Baptism of Desire notes how extraordinary it would be.

    Well...if it is that extra-ordinary then why even worry about it?

    Nobody did so before Americanism.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #126 on: May 31, 2018, 10:41:59 PM »
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  • I can't imagine who would.  Has this been said by the new church?  The 99% statistic is surely fictitious.  Near every reference I've seen to Baptism of Desire notes how extraordinary it would be.


    This a joke?


    CMRI

    http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_non-christian.shtml


    Quote
    The attitude of the Catholic Church towards pagans, Mohammedans and Jews has always been clear — there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Even supposing a person were invincibly ignorant of the true Church, he must still follow the natural law to be saved (implicit baptism of desire).



    Fr. Cekada

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2008/10/29/baptism-of-desire-perfect-charity-or-contrition/


    Quote
    Baptism of desire, in other words, is equated with perfect charity or perfect contrition.

    Q: What happened to the concept that we must go out and convert protestants, Jews, etc. to the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation. In my early years, God sent me to many souls to “preach” to to lead them to the Cathoic Church.

    R: Obviously, we’re still obliged to do this.

    After all, how many Catholics, still less non-Catholics, have perfect contrition?

    So, the missionary apostolate of preaching and converting souls to the one, true faith must ever continue.


    On ecumenism: Open Letter to Confused Catholics

    Archbishop Lefebvre describes the negative consequences of false ecumenism.

    Extracts from chapter 10 of Archbishop Lefebvre's classic apologetic work for Tradition, An Open Letter to Confused Catholics.


    http://sspx.org/en/archbishop-lefebvre-on-ecumenism-open-letter-to-confused-catholics



    Quote
    Baptism of desire

    Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian's formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.
    Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”

    The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

    The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state the truth.



    Bishop Bernard Fellay

    April 2006

    A TALK HEARD ROUND THE WORLD


    http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=2497


    Quote
    We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water. For example, with baptism of blood or desire, you do not receive the character of baptism. You only receive the grace, which means that those who die with these baptisms go to heaven–because they are united with Christ–but they will not have this wonderful and impressive gift which we call the character. It's noteworthy to see that this is the main reason why certain Fathers of the Church, including St. John Chrysostom, teach that the Blessed Virgin was baptized. She did not need baptism because she did not have Original Sin, but in order to receive the other sacraments, it makes sense that she would have received what allows us to receive the other sacraments: the character of baptism. This is not part of a definition about the Blessed Virgin Mary and we are not bound by the Faith to believe this, but we do have Fathers of the Church who went so far as to say that our Lord baptized St. Peter and then the Blessed Virgin Mary, or that St. Peter baptized our Lady and the rest of the Apostles.

    At any rate, it may be surprising, but it is important that these things be clear in our mind. Today, we have so many surprising theories around, and so we must hold fast to what the Church has always taught. And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Catholic Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #127 on: May 31, 2018, 10:50:31 PM »
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  • These quotes espouse the position that salvation can be had of those of other religions as long as morality is maintained, do they not?

    John, please explain how this position is not the same religious indifferentism that is condemned?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #128 on: May 31, 2018, 11:11:39 PM »
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  • This a joke?

    CMRI
    http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_non-christian.shtml

    Fr. Cekada
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2008/10/29/baptism-of-desire-perfect-charity-or-contrition/

    ...
    I don't have any difficulty with the links and quotes you provided.

    The following erroneous propositions were specifically condemned:
       15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -Allocution Maxima quidem, June 9, 1862; Damnatio Multiplices inter, June 10, 1851.
       16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -Encyclical Qui pluribus, Nov. 9, 1846.
       17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -Encyclical Quanto conficiamur, Aug. 10, 1863.
       18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -Encyclical Noscitis, Dec. 8, 1849."
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #129 on: May 31, 2018, 11:15:45 PM »
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  • Pope Pius IX said,

    (. . .)

    Specifically, that they "are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."

    Sancta Dei Civitas

    On Mission Societies

    Pope Leo XIII - 1880

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13mis.htm


    Quote
    6.

    (. . .)

    But the numerous and violent storms which have been let loose against the Church in the countries long illuminated by the light of the Gospel have brought injury on the works designed to civilize barbarous nations. Many causes, indeed, have combined to diminish the number and generosity of the associates. And, indeed, when so many perverse opinions are scattered abroad among the masses, sharpening their appetites for earthly happiness and banishing the hope of heavenly goods, what can be expected of those who use their minds to invent pleasures and their bodies to realize them? Do men like these pour forth their prayers to God that in His mercy he may bring to the Divine light of the Gospel by His victorious grace the people sitting in the darkness? Do they contribute subsidies to the priests who labor and do combat for the faith? The misfortunes of the time also have helped to diminish the generous impulses of pious persons themselves, partly because through the abounding of iniquity the love of many has waxed cold, and partly because political disturbances (without counting the fear of still worse times) have rendered the majority of them more bent on economy and less liberal in giving of their substance.



    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #130 on: May 31, 2018, 11:21:08 PM »
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  • I don't have any difficulty with the links and quotes you provided.

    The following ideas were specifically condemned...

    "III. Indifferentism, Latitudinarianism
       15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -Allocution Maxima quidem, June 9, 1862; Damnatio Multiplices inter, June 10, 1851.
       16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -Encyclical Qui pluribus, Nov. 9, 1846.
       17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -Encyclical Quanto conficiamur, Aug. 10, 1863.
       18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -Encyclical Noscitis, Dec. 8, 1849."


    Read it again.

    What of number 16?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #131 on: May 31, 2018, 11:25:17 PM »
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  • Read it again.

    What of number 16?
    #16 - Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation - is a false statement.  No Catholic would disagree.

    Our Lord Jesus said: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #132 on: May 31, 2018, 11:38:55 PM »
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  • Quote
    The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God.

    Archbishop Lefebvre

    I think we all can agree that the Ten Commandments given to Moses at Mount Sinai are a crucial part of God's will for us. A person who professes a false religion is not doing God's will right from the very beginning.

    Quote
    1. I am the LORD your God:
    you shall not have
    strange Gods before me.




    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #133 on: May 31, 2018, 11:42:51 PM »
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  • Perhaps you misunderstand the statement
    "in the observance of any religion whatever".

    God is not bound by the Sacraments, we are.

    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #134 on: May 31, 2018, 11:53:39 PM »
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  • CMRI

    Fr. Dominic Radecki and Francisco Radecki,

    What has happened to the Catholic Church? (Kindle Locations 1631-1635). St. Joseph's Media. Kindle Edition.


    Quote
    Those outside the Catholic Church can be saved through invincible ignorance; not because they are following a false religion but in spite of it. Why did Christ come down to earth, endure His Passion and death on the cross and establish His own Church if all religions are vehicles of salvation? A Ford or Chevy can take you across the country but you need to take a rocket to get to the moon. In other matters there is a choice. In charting a flight to heaven, we have to play by God's rules, not our own.



    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


     

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