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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23312 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #120 on: May 31, 2018, 09:21:33 PM »
If anyone states that Pius IX taught salvation BY invicible ignorance, that souls can remain in such a state, and be saved in such a state, you slander the Pope.

You slander the Apostolic See.

Offline trad123

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #121 on: May 31, 2018, 09:41:03 PM »
99% of the people who promote BOD do not even believe that a desire to be baptized is necessary for salvation, nor a desire to be a Catholic, or belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity. They believe that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews etc., can be saved without "a desire to be baptized, nor a desire to be a Catholic, or belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity".

If you are sincere as you say, ponder on that, for that is the REAL SUBJECT to be debated with the promoters of BOD, and not some catechumen who got run over by a bus on his way to be baptized.

This needs to be addressed.

Is there anyone left who will say that Baptism of Desire applies to those outside the visible bonds of the public profession of faith?


Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #122 on: May 31, 2018, 09:48:49 PM »
One cannot persist in claiming Baptism of Desire applies to the pagan, the Jew, the Moslem, the heretic, the schismatic.
I can't imagine who would.  Has this been said by the new church?  The 99% statistic is surely fictitious.  Near every reference I've seen to Baptism of Desire notes how extraordinary it would be.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #123 on: May 31, 2018, 09:54:33 PM »
If anyone states that Pius IX taught salvation BY invicible ignorance, that souls can remain in such a state, and be saved in such a state, you slander the Pope.

You slander the Apostolic See.

Pope Pius IX said,
Quote
"7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."
   "8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom 'the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.'(Ecuмenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.) The words of Christ are clear enough: 'If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;'(Mt 15.17.) 'He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;'(Lk 10.16.) 'He who does not believe will be condemned;'(Mk 16.16.) 'He who does not believe is already condemned;'(Jn 3.18.) 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.'(Lk 11.23.) The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned;'(Ti 3.11.) the Prince of the Apostles calls them 'false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.'(2 Pt 2.1.) "

Specifically, that they "are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #124 on: May 31, 2018, 10:12:00 PM »
Ok, thanks for your reply.  You don't have any authoritative references for your speculation.  You imagine in your own mind a contradiction and then expect others to adopt your views.  You offer nothing compelling other than your own view in contrast to well established Church teaching.  So, for myself, and I would hope others, the safer course would be to remain aligned with the long-standing Church teaching on the topic.  Thank you for the exercise.  Enjoy your time remaining.
No problem.  My authority is the Church, not speculation of the Saints.  Bod is not a doctrine.  I imagine nothing in my own mind because I see the results of bod with my own eyes in fellow Catholics.  Not only is what I've said compelling, the dismissal of it without response is proof in and of itself that it hit a nerve.  Thanks back.  
Have a wonderful evening.