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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 24825 times)

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #105 on: May 31, 2018, 02:40:08 PM »
Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, on The Sacraments, Question 68 - Of Those Who Receive Baptism, Second Article - Whether a Man Can Be Saved without Baptism?

"I answer that, The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wish to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacraments, in regard to those who have the use of free-will.  Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.  Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."
The council fathers at Trent placed Saint Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica on the altar during their  deliberations.  Do you somehow think your theological reasoning is superior to Saint Thomas Aquinas?

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #106 on: May 31, 2018, 03:13:54 PM »
Are you posturing that the canons and decrees from the Council of Trent are in anyway opposed to the positions expressed by Saint Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica?


Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #107 on: May 31, 2018, 03:23:21 PM »
The council fathers at Trent placed Saint Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica on the altar during their  deliberations.  Do you somehow think your theological reasoning is superior to Saint Thomas Aquinas?
The Church also teaches that St. Thomas and St. Augustine do not constitute the Church, exclusive of Church. Believing them to the point of contradiction of Catholic teaching also brings anathema. 
I'm not trying to correct St. Thomas.  I do think the passage of time has provided greater perspective; which brings to mind a passage in Scripture:
Matthew 13:17  For, amen, I say to you, many prophets and just men have desired to see the things that you see, and have not seen them, and to hear the things that you hear and have not heard them.
I take great care to consider why St. Thomas said the things he did about bod, but the answer always comes back to the Words of Christ.  Water and the Holy Spirit or anathema.  It is not possible for Christ to err, but St. Thomas can. No doubt the fullness of the damage of believing bod was not obvious to St. Thomas perhaps because that particular error was a germ of an idea intended to be congenial to God.  I'm guessing that of course, I do not actually know.  What I do know is that bod is makes Catholics lax and cold hearted.  Most Catholics can't be bothered to get out of their Lazy Boy long enough to assist someone to get Baptism because they "believe in their hearts" that God will mercifully give the good people bod.  

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #108 on: May 31, 2018, 03:25:57 PM »
Are you posturing that the canons and decrees from the Council of Trent are in anyway opposed to the positions expressed by Saint Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica?
Indeed I do. The Church trumps St. Thomas. (Although She usually doesn't have to) St. Thomas is not the Church.  In fact, Trent took care of any speculation St. Thomas had about bod and basically said, "no". 

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #109 on: May 31, 2018, 03:36:57 PM »
Indeed I do. The Church trumps St. Thomas. (Although She usually doesn't have to) St. Thomas is not the Church.  In fact, Trent took care of any speculation St. Thomas had about bod and basically said, "no".
I would reply in opposition to your opinion, in that the Council of Trent clearly agrees with Saint Thomas Aquinas, as does every Pope and Church theologian since the council (up to, of course, the Second Vatican council).

Other than your own misguided conjecture, can you provide a single authoritative Church reference that expressly denies Baptism of Desire?