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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 24872 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2018, 10:13:18 AM »
The sacraments, especially Baptism, which is initiation into the Faith are GIFTS.  No one has a right to the Faith, just like no one has a right to heaven.  God grants heaven to those to those who cooperate with His grace.  To those that don't cooperate with grace or for those for whom baptism would be received in vain because they would go to hell in spite of it (as only He can forsee), then sometimes He withholds this gift.  Such withholding of graces which would've been rejected in the end, is an act of mercy, that the sinner would not suffer worse in hell, by being a bad catholic.  ...This is why salvation is a mystery... 

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2018, 10:22:28 AM »
Absolutely.  That's precisely what St. Augustine was referring to as a vortex of confusion.

We don't do theology based on our speculations regarding what God would/wouldn't do.  We do theology based on what He has revealed that He DOES do.  Necessity of Baptism for salvation has been revealed to us.  BoD has not been revealed but is mere speculation.
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The deposit of faith becomes gradually explicated over time, as I'm sure you would agree.  The fathers all taught some degree of BoD (sometimes just for martyrs).  Most of the material you find from the fathers where they seem to argue against BoD is explained contextually by the sermons in question being directed to catechumens, and in an environment where there was a problem of catechumens remaining in the catechumenate indefinitely, so that they could engender social standing with Christians while not having the moral obligations of a Christian and being able to quickly "pivot" out of Christianity if a persecution were to occur.  Obviously in that context you're going to find the fathers exhorting their catechumens to baptism and not telling them to trust in their own justification, just as if a priest was preaching to a Gallican crowd he's not going to even consider mentioning the fact that we can have a bad pope, or St. John Vianney speaking to the people of Ars isn't even going to consider mentioning that culture actually plays a role in rules for modesty.
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By the time you get to Trent BoD is ordinary teaching, and by the time Trent concludes, it's abundantly clear this is the case.  Bellarmine, writing in the immediate wake of the council, witnesses that BoD is taught by all the theologians. 
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The point simply being that it's far more than "speculation."  Maybe during the Arian period there was some doubt as to the quality of teaching of BoD, but at bare minimum it's been clearly the teaching of the Church since Trent, and none of the authors who've taught it have understood it to be in conflict with baptism's necessity. 
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But we're going backwards, aren't we?  I would like your input on how, if there's no chance that someone not baptized can go to Heaven, the Church can offer ceremonies for them and bury them on sacred ground.  It seems that one must admit BoD in principle in order for such a law to be legitimate.


Offline Stubborn

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2018, 10:25:47 AM »
I personally think the "God wouldn't do that" argument is a very poor one, no matter the subject.
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It's a favorite among the conservative Novus Ordo types who simply appeal to Providence in attempting to make their case. "God wouldn't let that happen."
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It's of course true, at bottom, that every proposition's truth is ultimately conditioned on Providence. But we have certain knowledge that provides a glimpse into God's pattern of design in a general way AND fairly accurate way. The testimony of the Fathers, the Universal teaching of the Church, etc.
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When you just jump to "God would/wouldn't do that" you're *passing over* all the reasons that support or detract from arguing what God would or wouldn't do. It's basically question-begging.
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I always liked the question poster ihsv used to ask, this simple question made all the BODers either furious or would simply ignore it so as to continue to argue about the indisputable as per ususal......

The words of God, Who is Truth Himself, said: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

So the only question anyone needs to answer, is: Can a man enter the Kingdom of God without being born again of water and the Holy Ghost?

Yes or no.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2018, 10:28:00 AM »
I provided Church approved commentary on the canon cited.
The simple matter of fact is that baptism of desire is taught by the Church.  Your opinion to the contrary is your own.
Baptism of desire was never taught by the Church, only by men.  Big difference.  It may be found in lots of writings, but it contradicts everything the Church teaches.  One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism?  Uh, no, they say, there are three baptisms.  Baptism is necessary?  Uh, not quite, because there's bod.  Christ insists water and the Holy Spirit are necessary?  Their answer: if you get super creative you will see that water is included in the desire. 
What gives people the right to redefine terms?
If anyone is prepared to receive Baptism, but dies on the way, there is no reason to believe that God goes against Church teaching because circuмstances are beyond His control. It certainly isn't any more problematic for God to do it the right way.  
 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2018, 10:33:56 AM »
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The fathers all taught some degree of BoD (sometimes just for martyrs).

No, no they did not.  We have about a dozen references to BoB, and only one highly speculative opinion later retracted by St. Augustine, regarding BoD.  One could argue St. Ambrose on behalf of Valentinian, but it's not clear what he had in mind (perhaps even BoB since Valentinian was killed for being against Arianism).

With regard to BoB, the idea seems to originate with St. Cyprian for most of those Fathers, and St. Cyprian characterized BoB as reception of the SACRAMENT.  Later authors say that this is an error.  But other passages in St. Cyprian indicate that he believed that the matter and form of the Sacrament were present, that the blood-water mixture flowing from the martyr provided the matter in lieu of straight water, which was then accompanied by angels who pronounced the words (the form of the Sacrament).  So he viewed this as an alternate mode of receiving the SACRAMENT and not as as substitute for it.

So the evidence is extremely weak.  Even Karl Rahner, who promotes "Anonymous Christian" theology, admitted that there's little to no evidence among the Church Fathers for salvation without the Sacrament.