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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23343 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2018, 10:34:54 AM »
I provided Church approved commentary on the canon cited.
The simple matter of fact is that baptism of desire is taught by the Church.  Your opinion to the contrary is your own.

Horse manure!  You could find other sources to promote this false belief of yours, but the Canon Law is not one of them.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2018, 10:37:47 AM »
By the time you get to Trent BoD is ordinary teaching, 

False.  It was still regarded as a disputed question in the theology manuals of the day and BoD referred to as the Augustinian opinion.


Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2018, 10:38:43 AM »
It's very curious to me that people find a tension between the necessity of baptism and BoD, because they seem to make this argument based on the "plain" or "obvious" use of the word necessary precluding the possibility of the necessary item being supplied for.
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As an example, it is perfectly sensible to speak of hard work as being necessary to support one's family, and no one who says its necessary would, by saying so, intend to preclude the fact that someone born into a trust fund really doesn't need to work hard, since the property and finances have been supplied in another way.  We could think of a million things that are truly necessary that can be supplied for.  Point simply being that there's nothing "plain" or "obvious" about the word "necessary" radically excluding a supplication of effect; indeed, if we actually "go to the Church" (instead of "Churchmen", as happenby is wont to distinguish) we read that baptism is the instrumental cause of justification, which tells you everything you need to know.  Instruments are metaphysically substitutable, while principals (in this case, Christ's passion) are not.  Which is why the Old Testament Fathers, despite doing everything that was asked of them for justification, did not go immediately to Heaven-- because there was not yet a principal efficient cause of their justification.
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Anyways, the tension between the necessity of baptism and BoD is just a fabrication, both with regards to what the Church teaches and in regards to the very foundation (i.e., "ordinary" language and "plain" meanings) on which the case for a contradiction rests.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2018, 10:40:48 AM »
No, no they did not.  We have about a dozen references to BoB, and only one highly speculative opinion later retracted by St. Augustine, regarding BoD.  One could argue St. Ambrose on behalf of Valentinian, but it's not clear what he had in mind (perhaps even BoB since Valentinian was killed for being against Arianism).

With regard to BoB, the idea seems to originate with St. Cyprian for most of those Fathers, and St. Cyprian characterized BoB as reception of the SACRAMENT.  Later authors say that this is an error.  But other passages in St. Cyprian indicate that he believed that the matter and form of the Sacrament were present, that the blood-water mixture flowing from the martyr provided the matter in lieu of straight water, which was then accompanied by angels who pronounced the words (the form of the Sacrament).  So he viewed this as an alternate mode of receiving the SACRAMENT and not as as substitute for it.

So the evidence is extremely weak.  Even Karl Rahner, who promotes "Anonymous Christian" theology, admitted that there's little to no evidence among the Church Fathers for salvation without the Sacrament.
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Can you reply to everything I say in a post in one post?
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I don't care what Karl Rahner says, as heretics aren't a reliable guide for Church teaching.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2018, 10:41:13 AM »
Absolutely.  That's precisely what St. Augustine was referring to as a vortex of confusion.

We don't do theology based on our speculations regarding what God would/wouldn't do.  We do theology based on what He has revealed that He DOES do.  Necessity of Baptism for salvation has been revealed to us.  BoD has not been revealed but is mere speculation.
Absolutely, God knows intimately every soul who will be saved, he has no need or justification to go outside of His established order. If His attributes are all perfect( and they are), those who are lost are lost according to His justice, and everyone who is saved are saved by his mercy.
Theologians are sometimes the bane of the Church in that they can make something clearly revealed by God into something which is now unclear or in question. The Truth is never unclear, but we know that these propositions have led us to the more or less universal salvation of the Vatican II, which many Traditionalists now believe in.