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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23346 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2018, 12:11:31 AM »
Haydock commentary on Acts 10:47

https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment105.shtml



Quote
Ver. 47. Can any man forbid water? &c. Or doubt that these, on whom the Holy Ghost hath descended, may be made members of the Christian Church, by baptism, as Christ ordained? Wi. — Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament. But here we also learn one necessary lesson, that such, notwithstanding, must needs receive the sacraments appointed by Christ, which whosoever contemneth, can never be justified. S. Aug. sup. Levit. q. 84. T. 4.

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Offline trad123

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2018, 12:14:33 AM »
If I may speak boldly.

I dare say that this verse seems to infer no act of man can prevent the sacrament of Baptism being given to whom God has predestined.
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Offline trad123

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2018, 12:35:00 AM »
Ladislaus, I was searching for your old posts.

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/effects-of-the-heresy-of-denying-baptism-of-desire/msg387293/?topicseen#msg387293



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There is NOTHING that is impossible for God.  You're just proving that BoD is predicated upon this idea that God in some cases cannot bring His elect to Baptism.  That's essentially heretical (cf. Sacred Scripture -- "With God all things are possible.")  If someone were to be saved by BoD, it would only be because God directly willed for that person to be saved by BoD rather than to receive Sacramental Baptism.  But why would God ever will for a person to be saved by BoD?  Answer:  He wouldn't.  If such a one did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism, it was because God did not will for that person to receive the Sacrament of Baptism.  If God willed that someone should receive Baptism, then he WILL receive Baptism.

It just dawned on me, we're not talking about what God permits, but what he positively wills.

If no man can prevent the sacrament of Baptism from being carried out, the only other way would be God Himself would have to prevent the sacrament of Baptism from being celebrated, and substitute Baptism of Desire in it's place.
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Offline Mithrandylan

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2018, 09:11:13 AM »
I personally think the "God wouldn't do that" argument is a very poor one, no matter the subject. 
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It's a favorite among the conservative Novus Ordo types who simply appeal to Providence in attempting to make their case. "God wouldn't let that happen."
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It's of course true, at bottom, that every proposition's truth is ultimately conditioned on Providence. But we have certain knowledge that provides a glimpse into God's pattern of design in a general way AND fairly accurate way. The testimony of the Fathers, the Universal teaching of the Church, etc. 
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When you just jump to "God would/wouldn't do that" you're *passing over* all the reasons that support or detract from arguing what God would or wouldn't do. It's basically question-begging.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2018, 10:11:28 AM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan on May 31, 2018, 09:11:13 AM
I personally think the "God wouldn't do that" argument is a very poor one, no matter the subject.

Absolutely.  That's precisely what St. Augustine was referring to as a vortex of confusion.

We don't do theology based on our speculations regarding what God would/wouldn't do.  We do theology based on what He has revealed that He DOES do.  Necessity of Baptism for salvation has been revealed to us.  BoD has not been revealed but is mere speculation.
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