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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23280 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #200 on: June 06, 2018, 09:39:57 AM »
I'm comfortable with this.

It's heretical to say that someone can be saved without Baptism.  Even in the hypothetical case of BoD, the Sacrament of Baptism remains the instrumental cause of justification, operating through the votum.  I have repeatedly explained to BoDers how they must formulate BoD theory in order to avoid heresy, but most of them have refused the non-heretical formulation out of pride.

I don't believe in BoD because I believe that the character of Baptism is essential to the grace conferred, that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation, that there is no being "within" the Church without being a member of the Church, and because we cannot be adopted children of God and thus enter into the inner life of the Holy Trinity without God recognizing us as His sons ... due to the imprint of His Son's character in our souls.

I'd be much less uncomfortable with a BoD that also posited reception of the character of Baptism.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #201 on: June 06, 2018, 09:46:59 AM »
Dear JAM,

Keep in mind that St. Thomas (who you quote  many times) died before these dogmas on EENS were declared,  just as he also died before the declaration of The Immaculate Conception, a theological speculation of his time, which he rejected. Also, the infallibility of dogma was not clear till after Vatican I.
Saint Thomas Aquinas is a Doctor of the Church, "considered one of the Catholic Church's greatest theologians".
This last post of yours is a classic logical fallacy, the strawman argument, whereby you are attempting to attribute to me something that I have never said.  My position on Baptism of Desire is well within the boundaries defined by the Church.  No where, and at no time, have I every postured anything contrary to Church teaching.  I provide authoritative, on topic, Church references to the discussion, and never ever stray into personal conjecture.  This sub-forum is ripe with dishonest debate tactics, something so contrary to Catholic charity that I really can't rationalize the sub-forum's presence within this Catholic forum.


Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #202 on: June 06, 2018, 09:52:03 AM »
It's heretical to say that someone can be saved without Baptism.  Even in the hypothetical case of BoD, the Sacrament of Baptism remains the instrumental cause of justification, operating through the votum.  I have repeatedly explained to BoDers how they must formulate BoD theory in order to avoid heresy, but most of them have refused the non-heretical formulation out of pride.

I don't believe in BoD because I believe that the character of Baptism is essential to the grace conferred, that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation, that there is no being "within" the Church without being a member of the Church, and because we cannot be adopted children of God and thus enter into the inner life of the Holy Trinity without God recognizing us as His sons ... due to the imprint of His Son's character in our souls.

I'd be much less uncomfortable with a BoD that also posited reception of the character of Baptism.
No one is saying "someone can be saved without Baptism".  What is being said is that baptism, in certain situations, is supplied by the desire to be baptized where unexpected circuмstances prevent reception of the sacrament.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #203 on: June 06, 2018, 10:11:53 AM »
This sub-forum is ripe with dishonest debate tactics, something so contrary to Catholic charity that I really can't rationalize the sub-forum's presence within this Catholic forum.
Unless you provide specific examples, your complaint is just emotionalism, like women who complain about something, not wanting solutions, but just for consolement.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #204 on: June 06, 2018, 04:19:06 PM »
Saint Thomas Aquinas is a Doctor of the Church, "considered one of the Catholic Church's greatest theologians".
This last post of yours is a classic logical fallacy, the strawman argument, whereby you are attempting to attribute to me something that I have never said.  My position on Baptism of Desire is well within the boundaries defined by the Church.  No where, and at no time, have I every postured anything contrary to Church teaching.  I provide authoritative, on topic, Church references to the discussion, and never ever stray into personal conjecture.  This sub-forum is ripe with dishonest debate tactics, something so contrary to Catholic charity that I really can't rationalize the sub-forum's presence within this Catholic forum.
Like I said, your last post, wherein you quote Church doctrine then supply a response in red which you attribute to observers of the Church's teaching on baptism of desire.  This is dishonest, a strawman argument.  Church teaching isn't a debate, it should be a discussion.