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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23291 times)

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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #185 on: June 05, 2018, 12:54:11 AM »
Quote from: Cantarella on June 04, 2018, 10:41:40 PM
Yes; but the teaching is permitted specifically in the case of catechumens who depart this life with vow and desire to have the water Baptism but by "some remediless necessity could not obtain it".

Even if you would like to argue that such vow can be implicit; the dying person must need to have the knowledge of the Sacrament to begin with. He needs to know the truths necessary for salvation. For how one can desire something one absolutely knows nothing of? The Baptism of desire is the conscious "desire" of the water Baptism for an hypothetical, dying, and unfortunate catechumen.
I agree with you.  In so far as Church teaching explains, a baptism of desire (though not unheard of) would be very rare indeed.  Thank you for your kind reply.
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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #186 on: June 05, 2018, 01:01:11 AM »
Quote from: Cantarella on June 04, 2018, 11:00:40 PM
If you notice, right after this paragraph on Baptism, on the very same page, we find the timeless teaching of the Church that every Infidel, Jew, Pagan or Heretic, is judged already".

Here too, again, I agree with you.  With, of course, the understanding, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained,
Quote
"...the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #187 on: June 05, 2018, 07:43:36 AM »
Dear Mr. JohnAnthonyMarie,

What is the reason for your obsession with teaching people that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation? What bothers you so much about the people who believe that one must be a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death to be saved, that it has become your life's mission to "convert" them?
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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #188 on: June 05, 2018, 08:07:26 AM »
Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 05, 2018, 07:43:36 AM
Dear Mr. JohnAnthonyMarie,

What is the reason for your obsession with teaching people that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation? What bothers you so much about the people who believe that one must be a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death to be saved, that it has become your life's mission to "convert" them?
I feel neither obsessed nor bothered by defending truth.  In the same sense, this is neither a life mission nor a conversion attempt.  I am simply providing accurate information on a topic of discussion.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #189 on: June 05, 2018, 09:42:29 AM »
Quote
Dear Mr. JohnAnthonyMarie,

What is the reason for your obsession with teaching people that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation? What bothers you so much about the people who believe that one must be a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace at death to be saved, that it has become your life's mission to "convert" them?
JohnAnthonyMarie answered - I feel neither obsessed nor bothered by defending truth.  In the same sense, this is neither a life mission nor a conversion attempt.  I am simply providing accurate information on a topic of discussion.


LT asks: then "your truth, your accurate information", is that people can be saved without the sacrament of baptism or belief in Christ and the Incarnation, that one does not have to be  a sacramentally baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved?




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