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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23308 times)

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #180 on: June 04, 2018, 02:06:15 PM »
 :facepalm:

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #181 on: June 04, 2018, 06:14:48 PM »


Regarding Baptism and Justification, the Council of Trent clearly mentions a) reception of the sacrament, or b) a desire for it.

a) sacramental baptism
b) a baptism of desire
Canon 4 refers to, as you even quoted yourself, Sacraments in general. Ergo for that canon to prove desire for Baptism can replace Baptism, then Matrimony of Desire or Holy Orders of Desire must also be doctrines according to your twisted logic. So your canon cannot be proof for Baptism of Desire. All it proves is that SOME Sacraments can be received in desire, namely Reconciliation. Trent explains Reconciliation can be received in desire in other canons while also explicitly stating that the waters of Baptism cannot be metaphorical. Ergo, your canon does not prove Baptism of Desire and Trent does not support it in any way(and in fact refutes it, as BOD requires metaphorical water). 


Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #182 on: June 04, 2018, 09:35:07 PM »
Canon 4 refers to, as you even quoted yourself, Sacraments in general. Ergo for that canon to prove desire for Baptism can replace Baptism, then Matrimony of Desire or Holy Orders of Desire must also be doctrines according to your twisted logic. So your canon cannot be proof for Baptism of Desire. All it proves is that SOME Sacraments can be received in desire, namely Reconciliation. Trent explains Reconciliation can be received in desire in other canons while also explicitly stating that the waters of Baptism cannot be metaphorical. Ergo, your canon does not prove Baptism of Desire and Trent does not support it in any way(and in fact refutes it, as BOD requires metaphorical water).
I'm not going to argue your position.  I disagree.  The Church has repeatedly taught Baptism of Desire in very specific instances.  I am adhering to the long standing teaching by the Church.  There is nothing you can say to change that.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #183 on: June 04, 2018, 10:41:40 PM »
The Church has repeatedly taught Baptism of Desire in very specific instances.  I am adhering to the long standing teaching by the Church.  

Yes; but the teaching is permitted specifically in the case of catechumens who depart this life with vow and desire to have the water Baptism but by "some remediless necessity could not obtain it".

Even if you would like to argue that such vow can be implicit; the dying person must need to have the knowledge of the Sacrament to begin with. He needs to know the truths necessary for salvation. For how one can desire something one absolutely knows nothing of? The Baptism of desire is the conscious "desire" of the water Baptism for an hypothetical, dying, and unfortunate catechumen.  

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #184 on: June 04, 2018, 11:00:40 PM »
The answer is no.

The_Holy_Gospel_of_Jesus_Christ,_According_to_St._John
This is explained by the Church in the quotes I provided.  To "enter into the kingdom of God" a man must "be born again of water and the Holy Ghost", which is the sacrament of Baptism.  Should the man be forestalled from receiving the sacrament of Baptism by an untimely death, as Saint Thomas Aquinas explained, "such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism," because "God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly."


If you notice, right after this paragraph on Baptism, on the very same page, we find the timeless teaching of the Church that every Infidel, Jew, Pagan or Heretic, is judged already".

The annotation goes:

Quote
18. Is judged already: He that believeth in Christ with Faith which worketh by charity (as the Apostle speaketh) shall not be condemned at the later day nor at the hour of his death. But the Infidel, be he Jew, Pagan, or Heretic, is already (if he die in his incredulity) by his own profession and sentence condemned, and shall not come to judgement either particular or general, to be discussed according to his works of mercy done or omitted. In which sense St. Paul saith that the obstinate heretic is condemned by his own judgement, preventing in himself, of his own free will, the sentence both of Christ and of the Church.