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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23284 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #175 on: June 04, 2018, 11:57:36 AM »
And again, of course, the Council of Trent clearly addressed this topic.
Quote
Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
    "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and
[if anyone shall say] that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
    "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
In your first quote, you will find that; 1) the sacraments are necessary for salvation and 2) if you say without the sacrament or the desire for it, through faith alone men obtain the grace of justification, you're anathema.

In your second quote, the key word/subject matter you need to hone in on, is justification.

In either case, these quotes both confirm that the sacrament is necessary for salvation.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #176 on: June 04, 2018, 01:10:34 PM »
And of course you distort and misinterpret Trent to suit your agenda.
My only agenda is to follow the Church's teaching on the topic.

It is odd you say that I distort and misinterpret, because I have been providing authoritative references, whereas you have only provided your own opinions on the topic.


Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #177 on: June 04, 2018, 01:14:56 PM »
In your first quote, you will find that; 1) the sacraments are necessary for salvation and 2) if you say without the sacrament or the desire for it, through faith alone men obtain the grace of justification, you're anathema.

In your second quote, the key word/subject matter you need to hone in on, is justification.

In either case, these quotes both confirm that the sacrament is necessary for salvation.
For myself, the safer position is to conform with the explanation of Saint Thomas Aquinas on this topic.  I fully understand you disagree with Saint Thomas Aquinas.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #178 on: June 04, 2018, 01:21:37 PM »
For myself, the safer position is to conform with the explanation of Saint Thomas Aquinas on this topic.  I fully understand you disagree with Saint Thomas Aquinas.
Then now that you see that the Church (Trent) in no way taught salvation via a BOD, you should never again quote from Trent as if they taught a BOD.

Can we at least agree on that?

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #179 on: June 04, 2018, 01:50:20 PM »
Quote
Quote
Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
    "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
    "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

Regarding Baptism and Justification, the Council of Trent clearly mentions a) reception of the sacrament, or b) a desire for it.

a) sacramental baptism
b) a baptism of desire