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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 14415 times)

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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #105 on: May 31, 2018, 02:40:08 PM »
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  • Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, on The Sacraments, Question 68 - Of Those Who Receive Baptism, Second Article - Whether a Man Can Be Saved without Baptism?

    "I answer that, The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wish to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacraments, in regard to those who have the use of free-will.  Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
    Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.  Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."
    The council fathers at Trent placed Saint Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica on the altar during their  deliberations.  Do you somehow think your theological reasoning is superior to Saint Thomas Aquinas?
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #106 on: May 31, 2018, 03:13:54 PM »
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  • Are you posturing that the canons and decrees from the Council of Trent are in anyway opposed to the positions expressed by Saint Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica?
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #107 on: May 31, 2018, 03:23:21 PM »
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  • The council fathers at Trent placed Saint Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica on the altar during their  deliberations.  Do you somehow think your theological reasoning is superior to Saint Thomas Aquinas?
    The Church also teaches that St. Thomas and St. Augustine do not constitute the Church, exclusive of Church. Believing them to the point of contradiction of Catholic teaching also brings anathema. 
    I'm not trying to correct St. Thomas.  I do think the passage of time has provided greater perspective; which brings to mind a passage in Scripture:
    Matthew 13:17  For, amen, I say to you, many prophets and just men have desired to see the things that you see, and have not seen them, and to hear the things that you hear and have not heard them.
    I take great care to consider why St. Thomas said the things he did about bod, but the answer always comes back to the Words of Christ.  Water and the Holy Spirit or anathema.  It is not possible for Christ to err, but St. Thomas can. No doubt the fullness of the damage of believing bod was not obvious to St. Thomas perhaps because that particular error was a germ of an idea intended to be congenial to God.  I'm guessing that of course, I do not actually know.  What I do know is that bod is makes Catholics lax and cold hearted.  Most Catholics can't be bothered to get out of their Lazy Boy long enough to assist someone to get Baptism because they "believe in their hearts" that God will mercifully give the good people bod.  

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #108 on: May 31, 2018, 03:25:57 PM »
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  • Are you posturing that the canons and decrees from the Council of Trent are in anyway opposed to the positions expressed by Saint Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica?
    Indeed I do. The Church trumps St. Thomas. (Although She usually doesn't have to) St. Thomas is not the Church.  In fact, Trent took care of any speculation St. Thomas had about bod and basically said, "no". 

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #109 on: May 31, 2018, 03:36:57 PM »
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  • Indeed I do. The Church trumps St. Thomas. (Although She usually doesn't have to) St. Thomas is not the Church.  In fact, Trent took care of any speculation St. Thomas had about bod and basically said, "no".
    I would reply in opposition to your opinion, in that the Council of Trent clearly agrees with Saint Thomas Aquinas, as does every Pope and Church theologian since the council (up to, of course, the Second Vatican council).

    Other than your own misguided conjecture, can you provide a single authoritative Church reference that expressly denies Baptism of Desire?
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #110 on: May 31, 2018, 04:14:05 PM »
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  • I would reply in opposition to your opinion, in that the Council of Trent clearly agrees with Saint Thomas Aquinas, as does every Pope and Church theologian since the council (up to, of course, the Second Vatican council).

    Other than your own misguided conjecture, can you provide a single authoritative Church reference that expressly denies Baptism of Desire?
    The Council of Trent was quite explicit when they said whoever says that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation and are superfluous, is anathema. Is a BOD the eighth sacrament now?

    From: An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846, St. Alphonsus says: 

    "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone [BOD], and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching. But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons: for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all."

    Was St. Alphonsus misguided?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #111 on: May 31, 2018, 04:56:09 PM »
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  • CODEX IURIS CANONICI

    LIBER TERTIUS
    DE REBUS

    PARS PRIMA.
    DE SACRAMENTIS.

    TITULUS I.
    De baptismo.

    CAN. 737.
     § 1. Baptismus, Sacramentorum ianua ac fundamentum, omnibus in re vel saltem in voto necessarius ad salutem, valide non confertur, nisi per ablutionem aquae verae et naturalis cuм praescripta verborum forma.
     § 2. cuм ministratur servatis omnibus ritibus et caeremoniis quae in ritualibus libris praecipiuntur, appellatur sollemnis; secus, non sollemnis seu privutus.

    A Practical Commentary On The Code Of Canon Law, by Rev. Stanislaus Woywod, O.F.M., LL.B.
    Quote
    "632. Baptism - the door and foundation of all other Sacraments, the Sacrament which, if we are to attain salvation, must be either actually received or at least desired - is given validly only by ablution with truly natural water and the pronouncing of the prescribed form of words.  Baptism administered with the observance of all the rites and ceremonies prescribed in the ritual is called solemn; otherwise it is called not solemn, or private (Canon 737)."

    A COMMENTARY ON CANON LAW, VOLUME FOUR, by The Rev. P. Chas. Augustine, O.S.B, D.D.
    Quote
    "Baptism is called the gate to, and the foundation of, the other Sacraments, because without it no other Sacrament can be validly received.  The Church has ever taught that Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, - either really or by desire - and that consequently no other sacrament can be validly received without it.  Thus ordination would be invalid and imprint no indelible character if the ordinandus had not been baptized.  This necessity of Baptism is called necessitas medii, necessity of means, because without it salvation cannot be obtained.  The reason for this absolute necessity lies in the words of Our Lord, John III, 5.  Either in re or in voto signifies that the baptismus fluminis or flaminis or sanguinis is sufficient."

    You added the implication that equates "justified by faith alone" with Baptism of Desire.  This is rather dishonest.  The Church has never taught that Baptism of Desire is a sacrament, in fact, the commentaries on canon law repeatedly make this distinction.

    Further, your implication would make Saint Alphonsus Liguori contradict himself in his own Moral Theology work wherein he specifically references the Council of Trent, "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of wind' ['flaminis'] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ['flamen']. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon 'Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato' and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    While the previous poster may be misguided, you are certainly malicious.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #112 on: May 31, 2018, 05:48:40 PM »
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  • I would reply in opposition to your opinion, in that the Council of Trent clearly agrees with Saint Thomas Aquinas, as does every Pope and Church theologian since the council (up to, of course, the Second Vatican council).

    Other than your own misguided conjecture, can you provide a single authoritative Church reference that expressly denies Baptism of Desire?
    I can think of lots of them. 
    The Catholic teaching of the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism is one authority.  Because it details how it must be administered, that it must be done by another, in water, while pouring, etc.  This teaching denies bod because bod is not Baptism.  Therefore, it cannot, by definition fulfill what the Sacrament demands or promises.  Another authoritative reference: Christ denies bod when He says water and the Holy Ghost are necessary for salvation. Canons in Trent also deny bod because one says water is necessary for Baptism, and another canon says Baptism is necessary for salvation.  How do bod'ers get around this without deviant mental gymnastics?  Just because saints had pious hopes?  Scripture is another authority: Ephesians 4:5 denies bod when it says, "one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism".  What other baptisms is Scripture is excluding?  There are many more papal statements, definitions in councils, including the dogma "no salvation outside the Church."

    When people go back and forth laying out this quote or that quote to prove what's true, you'll find a lot of redefining of what the quotes say, rather than what they literally say.  I've been through that scenario for years and its so tiresome.  I suppose I'm glad because I learned a lot.  My approach these days is a more simple and very reasonable one.  Take the teachings as they are written. All together they present a tower of opposition to bod.  Yet arguing back and forth about quote after quote is like pounding the tower's bricks hoping each one stands alone against the monster of indifference.

    Seems that if the Devil wanted a way for Catholics to lighten up about getting every last person Baptized, bod would be just the ticket.  In the name of God's mercy no less.  Despicably brilliant.

    The risks of getting this wrong should dictate what we ought to believe. 
     

     


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #113 on: May 31, 2018, 06:10:49 PM »
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  • What I asked for was...
    Quote
    … a single authoritative Church reference that expressly denies Baptism of Desire?
    What I'm looking for is something that explicitly uses the term "Baptism of Desire" in the discourse.

    Again, your lay conjecture is absolutely meaningless compared to the numerous authoritative declarations by Church theologians.  

    Fr. A. Tanquery, Dogmatic Brevior, ART.IV, Section I,II - 1945 (1024-1)
    Quote
       The Baptism of Desire. Contrition, or perfect charity, with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies in adults the place of the baptism of water as respects the forgiveness of sins.
       This is certain.
       Explanation: a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism; likewise, according to the more common opinion, in one who knows the necessity of Baptism.
       b) Perfect charity, with a desire for Baptism, forgives original sin and actual sins, and therefore infuses sanctifying grace; but it does not imprint the Baptismal character and does not of itself remit the whole temporal punishment due for sin; whence, when the opportunity offers, the obligation remains on one who was sanctified in this manner of receiving the Baptism of water.

    Fr. Dominic Prummer, O.P., Moral Theology, 1949
    Quote
    · "Baptism of Desire which is a perfect act of charity that includes at least implicitly the desire of Baptism by water";
    · "Baptism of Blood which signifies martyrdom endured for Christ prior to the reception of Baptism by water";
    · "Regarding the effects of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire... both cause sanctifying grace. ...Baptism of Blood usually remits all venial and temporal punishment..."

    Fr. Francis O'Connell, Outlines of Moral Theology - 1953
    Quote
       - "Baptism of Desire ... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition..."
       - "These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood & Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament."
       "...Even if an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith..."

    Mgr. J. H. Hervé, Manuale Theologiae Dogmaticae (Vol. III: chap. IV) - 1931
    Quote
       II. On those for whom Baptism of water can be supplied:
       "The various baptisms: from the Council of Trent itself and from the things stated, it stands firm that Baptism is necessary, yet in fact or in desire; therefore in an extraordinary case it can be supplied. Further, according to the Catholic doctrine, there are two things by which the sacrament of Baptism can be supplied, namely an act of perfect charity with the desire of Baptism and the death as martyr. Since these two are a compensation for Baptism of water, they themselves are called Baptism, too, in order that they may be comprehended with it under one as it were generic name; so the act of love with desire for Baptism is called Baptismus flaminis (Baptism of the Spirit) and the martyrium (Baptism of Blood)."

    Fr. H. Noldin, S.J. - Fr. A. Schmit, S.J., Summa theologiae moralis (Vol. III de Sacramentis); Bk 2 Quaestio prima - 1929
    Quote
       "Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is perfect charity or contrition, in which the desire in fact to receive the sacrament of Baptism is included; perfect charity and perfect contrition however have the power to confer sanctifying grace."

    Fr. Arthur Vermeersch, S.J., Theologiae moralis (Vol. III, Tractatus II) - 1948
    Quote
       "The Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is an act of perfect charity or contrition, in so far as it contains at least a tacit desire of the Sacrament. Therefore it can be had only in adults. It does not imprint a character; ...but it takes away all mortal sin together with the sentence of eternal penalty, according to: 'He who loves me, is loved by my Father.' (John 14:21)"

    Fr. Ludovico Billot, S.J., De Ecclesiae Sacramentis (Vol. I); Quaestio LXVI; Thesis XXIV - 1931
    Quote
       "Baptism of spirit (flaminis), which is also called of repentance or of desire is nothing else than an act of charity or perfect contrition includeing a desire of the Sacrament, according to what has been said above, namely that, the heart of everyone is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe, and to love God, and to be sorry for his sins."

    Fr. Eduardus Genicot, S.J., Theologiae Moralis Institutiones (Vol II); Tractatus XII - 1902
    Quote
       "Baptism of the Spirit (flaminis) consists in an act of perfect charity or contrition, with which there is always an infusion of sanctifying grace connected...
       Both are called 'of desire' (in voto)...; perfect charity, because it has always connected the desire, at least the implicit one of receiving this sacrament, absolutely necessary for salvation."

    Fr. Aloysia Sabetti, S.J. Fr. Timotheo Barrett, S.J., Compendium Theologiae Moralis; Tractatus XII De Baptismo (Chap. 1) - 1926
    Quote
       "Baptism, the gate and foundation of the Sacraments in fact or at least in desire, is necessary for all unto salvation...
       From the Baptism of water, which is called of river (Baptismus fluminis), is from Baptism of the Spirit (Baptismus flaminis) and Baptism of Blood, by which Baptism properly speaking can be supplied, if this be impossible. The first one is a full conversion to God through perfect contrition or charity, in so far as it contains an either explicit or at least implicit will to receive Baptism of water ... Baptism of Spirit (flaminis) and Baptism of Blood are called Baptism of desire (in voto)."



    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #114 on: May 31, 2018, 07:16:29 PM »
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  • What I asked for was...What I'm looking for is something that explicitly uses the term "Baptism of Desire" in the discourse.

    Again, your lay conjecture is absolutely meaningless compared to the numerous authoritative declarations by Church theologians.  

    Fr. A. Tanquery, Dogmatic Brevior, ART.IV, Section I,II - 1945 (1024-1)
    Fr. Dominic Prummer, O.P., Moral Theology, 1949
    Fr. Francis O'Connell, Outlines of Moral Theology - 1953
    Mgr. J. H. Hervé, Manuale Theologiae Dogmaticae (Vol. III: chap. IV) - 1931
    Fr. H. Noldin, S.J. - Fr. A. Schmit, S.J., Summa theologiae moralis (Vol. III de Sacramentis); Bk 2 Quaestio prima - 1929
    Fr. Arthur Vermeersch, S.J., Theologiae moralis (Vol. III, Tractatus II) - 1948
    Fr. Ludovico Billot, S.J., De Ecclesiae Sacramentis (Vol. I); Quaestio LXVI; Thesis XXIV - 1931
    Fr. Eduardus Genicot, S.J., Theologiae Moralis Institutiones (Vol II); Tractatus XII - 1902
    Fr. Aloysia Sabetti, S.J. Fr. Timotheo Barrett, S.J., Compendium Theologiae Moralis; Tractatus XII De Baptismo (Chap. 1) - 1926
    You said: "What I asked for was...What I'm looking for is something that explicitly uses the term "Baptism of Desire" in the discourse."
    In those terms, no.  Still, my response totally whizzed by you.  Bod is a serious problem because it attacks several different Catholic teachings and redefines what is necessary for salvation.  Bod'ers know this is a problem but seem to care less. Why do they do that?  I have yet to hear one that says, "Yea, I worry about that."  Or, "I can see how that might be a problem". They never do. And I know why.  They don't care about the real world, or real people because they have quotes.  Everyone knows there is a tangible laxity manifested in the laity who can't be bothered to spread the Faith. No wonder. Bod takes care of all the well meaning people anyway.  Bod has no definable parameters for the Catholic who wants to see mercy as they understand it. With the perquisites of Baptism out the way, each person sees it his own way and the extremes are mind boggling. Bod is a worm in the minds of Catholics who, to whatever degree they are inclined, prefer to believe a non baptism might reasonably take care of everything, rather than them having to do the work of Christ.  Even if they assumed wrongly one time and didn't do what they should, counting on bod, but doing nothing, they could be accountable!
    I know what your quotes say.  I also know some of those quotes contradict not only the teachings of the Church, Popes, Scripture, and what is reasonable, but also each other.  When push comes to shove, the greater authority quotes supersede anyway.  Not only is it safer to approach this with respect for the higher authority, its ridiculous to think our personal belief about dead non-Catholics affects anything.
     

    Offline Merry

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #115 on: May 31, 2018, 07:22:38 PM »
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  • So, Lover of Truth is back?
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #116 on: May 31, 2018, 07:37:20 PM »
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  • So, Lover of Truth is back?
    Lol. Could be a LOT in JAM.

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #117 on: May 31, 2018, 08:57:42 PM »
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  • Ok, thanks for your reply.  You don't have any authoritative references for your speculation.  You imagine in your own mind a contradiction and then expect others to adopt your views.  You offer nothing compelling other than your own view in contrast to well established Church teaching.  So, for myself, and I would hope others, the safer course would be to remain aligned with the long-standing Church teaching on the topic.  Thank you for the exercise.  Enjoy your time remaining.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #118 on: May 31, 2018, 09:05:50 PM »
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  • The life of Pope Pius IX and the great events in the history of the Church during his pontificate

    By John Gilmary Shea, published 1877

    pgs. 97 - 103

    https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfPopePiusIX1877


    Quote
    In an allocution to the cardinals on the Consistory of the 17th of December, 1847, Pius IX. congratulated the sacred college on the renewal of a cordial understanding with Spain, by means of which he had been enabled to appoint a number of bishops in that country once so devoted  to the Church. He alluded too to the favorable appearance of the Catholic cause in Russia, and repudiated certain theories ascribed to him. Against religious indifferentism so zealously advocated in our days, and made as it were a state creed, he said : "It is assuredly not unknown to you, venerable brethren, that in our times many of the enemies of the Catholic faith especially direct their efforts toward placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or of confounding it therewith, and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions.

    But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system. From the measures, in no' wise incompatible with the sanctity of the  Catholic religion, which, in certain affairs relating to the civil government of the Pontifical States, we thought fit in kindness to adopt, as tending to the public advantage and prosperity, and from the amnesty graciously bestowed upon some of the subjects of the same States at the beginning of our pontificate, it appears that these men have desired to infer that we think so benevolently concerning every, class of mankind, as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life."

    We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us. We do indeed love all mankind with the inmost affection of our heart, yet not otherwise than in the love of God, and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who came to  seek and to save that which had perished, who died for all, who wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth ; who therefore sent his disciples into the whole world to preach the gospel to every creature, proclaiming that they who should believe and be baptized should be saved, but they who should believe not should be condemned ; who therefore will be saved let them come to the pillar and ground of faith, which is the Church; let them come to the true Church of Christ, which in its bishops and in the Roman Pontiff, the chief head of all, has the succession of apostolical authority, never at any time interrupted; which has never counted aught of greater moment than to preach and by all means to keep and defend the doctrine proclaim ed by the apostles, by Christ's command; which, from the apostles' time downward, has increased in the midst of difficulties of every kind ; and being illustrious through out the whole world by the splendor of miracles, multiplied by the blood of martyrs, exalted by the virtues of confessors and virgins, strengthened by the most wise testimonies of the fathers, hath flourished and doth flourish in all the regions of the earth, and shines refulgent in the perfect unity of the faith, of sacraments, and of holy discipline."



    Mirari Vos

    Pope Gregory XVI - 1832

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm


    Quote
    13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”[18] Let them hear Jerome who, while the Church was torn into three parts by schism, tells us that whenever someone tried to persuade him to join his group he always exclaimed: “He who is for the See of Peter is for me.”[19] A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: “The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?”

    Scroll down to read the quote

    The Catholic Dogma by Fr. Muller

    Excerpt from CHAPTER V., Part II.

    http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/The_Catholic_Dogma/Chapter-V_Part-II.html




    Quote
    "What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity to know better?

    To this question we give the following answer: "Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in his infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance." (St. Thomas Aquinas.)

    S. O. remarks about this answer, "that the author is not theologically correct, for no one will ever be punished through, by, or because of inculpable ignorance." In these words, S. O. impudently imputes to us what we never have asserted, namely, that a man will be damned on account of his inculpable ignorance." From the fact that a person tries to live up to the dictates of his conscience, and cannot sin against the true religion on account of being invincibly ignorant of it, many have drawn the false conclusion that such a person is saved, or, in other words, is in the state of sanctifying grace, making thus invincible ignorance a means of salvation. This conclusion is contra "latius hos quam praemissae." To give an example. The Rev. Nicholas Russo, S. J., professor of philosophy in Boston College, says in his book, The true Religion and its dogmas:—

    "This good faith being supposed, we say that such a Christian (he means a baptized Protestant) is in a way a member of the Catholic Church. Ignorance alone is the cause of his not acknowledging the authority of his true mother. The Catholic Church does not look upon him as wholly a stranger; she calls him her child; she presses him to her maternal heart; through other hands she prepares him to shine in the kingdom of heaven. Yes, the profession of a creed different from the true one will not, of itself, bar the gates of heaven before this Christian; invincible ignorance will, before the tribunal of the just God, ensure the pardon of his errors against faith; and, if nothing else be wanting, heaven will be, his home for eternity." We have already sufficiently refuted these false assertions, and we have quoted them, not for the purpose of refuting them, but for the purpose of denying emphatically what follows after these false assertions, namely: "This is the doctrine held by almost all theologians, and has received the sanction of our late Pope Pius IX.. In his Allocution of December 9, 1854, we read the following words: "It is indeed of faith that no one can be saved outside the Apostolic Roman Church; that this Church is the one ark of salvation; that he who has not entered it will perish in the deluge. But, on the other hand, it is equally certain that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, he would not be held guilty in the sight of God for not professing it."

    Now, in which of these words of Pope Pius IX. is any of the above false assertions of the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., sanctioned? In which words does Pius IX. say that a Protestant in good faith is in a way a member of the Catholic Church? Does not Pius IX. teach quite the contrary in the following words, which the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., quotes pp. 163-166?
    "Now, whoever will carefully examine and reflect upon the condition of the various religious societies, divided among themselves, and separated from the Catholic Church—which, from the days of Our Lord Jesus Christ and his Apostles, has ever exercised, by its lawful pastors, and still does exercise, the divine power committed to it by this same Lord—will easily satisfy himself that none of these societies, singly nor all together, are in any way or form that one Catholic Church which our Lord founded and built, and which he chose should be; and that he cannot by any means say that these societies are members or parts of that Church, since they are visibly separated from Catholic unity...

    "Let all those, then, who do not profess the unity and truth of the Catholic Church, avail themselves of the opportunity of this (Vatican) Council, in which the Catholic Church, to which their forefathers belonged, affords a new proof of her close unity and her invincible vitality, and let them satisfy the longings of their hearts, and liberate themselves from that state in which they cannot have any assurance of their own salvation. Let them unceasingly offer fervent prayers to the God of Mercy, that he will throw down the wall of separation, that he will scatter the darkness of error, and that he will lead them back to the Holy Mother Church, in whose bosom their fathers found the salutary pastures of life, in whom alone the whole doctrine of Jesus Christ is preserved and handed down, and the mysteries of heavenly grace dispensed."

    Now does not Pius IX. say in these words, very plainly and distinctly, that the members of all other religious societies are visibly separated from Catholic unity; that in this state of separation they cannot have salvation; that by fervent prayer, they should beseech God to throw down the wall of separation, to scatter the darkness of error, and lead them to the Mother Church, in which alone salvation is found." And in his Allocution to the Cardinals held Dec. 17, 1847, Pius IX. says: "Let those, therefore, who wish to be saved, come to the pillar and the ground of faith, which is the Church; let them come to the true Church of Christ, which, in her Bishops, and in the Roman Pontiff, the Chief Head of all, has the succession of apostolical Authority, which has never been interrupted, which has never counted anything of greater importance than to preach, and by all means to keep, and defend the doctrine proclaimed by the Apostles at Christ's command . . . . . . We shall never at any time abstain from any cares or labors that, by the grace of Christ himself, we may bring those who are ignorant, and who are going astray, to THIS ONLY ROAD OF TRUTH AND SALVATION." Now does not Pius IX. teach most clearly in these words that the ignorant cannot be saved by their ignorance, but that, in order to be saved, they must come to the only road of truth and salvation, which is the Roman Catholic Church?

    Again, does not Pius IX. most emphatically declare, in the words quoted above by the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., that "It is indeed of faith, that NO ONE can be saved out of the Apostolic Roman Church?" How, then, we ask, can the Rev. N. Russo, S. J. say in truth, that a Protestant in good faith, such as he described, is in a way a member of the Catholic Church? that the Catholic Church does not look upon him as wholly a stranger? that she calls him her child, presses him to her maternal heart, prepares him, through other hands, to shine in the kingdom of God? that the profession of a creed different from the true one will not, of itself, bar the gates of heaven before this Christian, etc.? How can this professor of philosophy at the Boston College assert all this, whilst Pius IX teaches the very contrary? And mark especially the scandalous assertion of the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., namely: "This our opinion is the doctrine which has received the sanction of our late Pope Pius IX." To prove his scandalous assertion, he quotes the following words of Pius IX: "It is equally certain that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, he would not be held guilty in the sight of God for not professing it." If, in these words, Pius IX. says what no one calls in question, that invincible ignorance of the true religion excuses a Protestant from the sin of heresy, does Pius IX. thereby teach that such invincibly ignorance saves such a Protestant? Does he teach that invincible ignorance supplies all that is necessary for salvation—all that you can have only in the true faith? How could the Professor of philosophy at the Jesuit College in Boston draw such a false and scandalous conclusion from premises in which it is not contained? Pius IX. has, on many occasions, condemned such liberal opinions. Read his Allocution to the Cardinals, held Dec. 17, 1847, in which he expresses his indignation against all those who had said that he had sanctioned such perverse opinions. "In our times," says he, "many of the enemies of the Catholic Faith direct their efforts towards placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or confounding it therewith; and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions. But quite recently—we shudder to say it, certain men have not hesitated to slander us by saying that we share in their folly, favor that most wicked system, and think so benevolently of every class of mankind as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life. We are at a loss from horror, to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done to us."

    Mark well, Pius IX. uttered these solemn words against "certain men," whom he calls the enemies of the Catholic Faith,—he means liberal minded Catholics and priests, as is evident from other Allocutions, in which he says that he has condemned not less than forty times their perverse opinions about religion. Is it not, for instance, a perverse and monstrous opinion, when the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., says: "The spiritual element (of the Church) comprises all the graces and virtues that are the foundation of the spiritual life; it includes the gifts of the Holy Ghost; in other words, it is what theologians call the soul of the Church. (Now follows the monstrous opinion) This mysterious soul is not limited by the bounds of the exterior organization (of the Church); it can go far beyond; exist even in the midst of schism and heresy unconsciously professed, and bind to our Lord hearts that are connected by no exterior ties with the visible Body of the Church. This union with the soul of the Church is essential to salvation; so essential that without it none can be saved. But the necessity of belonging likewise to the Body of the Church, though a real one, may in certain cases offer no obstacle to salvation. This happens whenever invincible ignorance so shrouds a man's intellectual vision, that he ceases to be responsible before God for the light which he does not see"? The refutation of this monstrous opinion is sufficiently given in all we have said before. The very Allocution of Pius IX., from which the Rev. N. Russo quotes, is a direct condemnation of such monstrous opinions. (See Preface)

    Now these modern would-be theologians are not ashamed to assure us most solemnly that their opinions are the doctrine held by almost all theologians, and yet they cannot quote one proof from Holy Scripture, or from the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, to give the least support to their opinions.

    The Rev. N. Russo and S. O. seem not to see the difference between saying: Inculpable ignorance will not save a man, and inculpable ignorance will not damn a man. Each assertion is correct, and yet there is a great difference between the two. It will be an act of charity to enlighten them on the point in question.

    Inculpable or invincible ignorance has never been and will never be a means of salvation. To be saved, it is necessary to be justified, or to be in the state of sanctifying grace. In order to obtain sanctifying grace, it is necessary to have the proper dispositions for justification; that is, true divine faith in at least the necessary truths of salvation, confident hope in the divine Saviour, sincere sorrow for sin, together with the firm purpose of doing all that God has commanded, etc. Now, these supernatural acts of faith, hope, charity, contrition, etc., which prepare the soul for receiving sanctifying grace, can never be supplied by invincible ignorance; and if invincible ignorance cannot supply the preparation for receiving sanctifying grace, much less can it bestow sanctifying grace itself. "Invincible ignorance," says St. Thomas Aquinas, "is a punishment for sin." (De Infid. q. x., art. 1.) It is, then, a curse, but not a blessing or a means of salvation.

    But if we say that inculpable ignorance cannot save a man, we thereby do not say that invincible ignorance damns a man. Far from it. To say, invincible ignorance is no means of salvation, is one thing; and to say, invincible ignorance is the cause of damnation is another. To maintain the latter, would be wrong, for inculpable ignorance of the fundamental principles of faith excuses a heathen from the sin of infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy; because such invincible ignorance, being only a simple involuntary privation, is no sin.

    Hence Pius IX. said "that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, such invincible ignorance would not be sinful before God; that, if such a person should observe the precepts of the Natural Law and do the will of God to the best of his knowledge, God, in his infinite mercy, may enlighten him so as to obtain eternal life; for, the Lord, who knows the heart and thoughts of man will, in his infinite goodness, not suffer any one to be lost forever without his own fault."
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
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  • One cannot persist in claiming Baptism of Desire applies to the pagan, the Jew, the Moslem, the heretic, the schismatic.



    Quote
    Mark well, Pius IX. uttered these solemn words against "certain men," whom he calls the enemies of the Catholic Faith,—he means liberal minded Catholics and priests, as is evident from other Allocutions, in which he says that he has condemned not less than forty times their perverse opinions about religion. Is it not, for instance, a perverse and monstrous opinion, when the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., says: "The spiritual element (of the Church) comprises all the graces and virtues that are the foundation of the spiritual life; it includes the gifts of the Holy Ghost; in other words, it is what theologians call the soul of the Church. (Now follows the monstrous opinion) This mysterious soul is not limited by the bounds of the exterior organization (of the Church); it can go far beyond; exist even in the midst of schism and heresy unconsciously professed, and bind to our Lord hearts that are connected by no exterior ties with the visible Body of the Church. This union with the soul of the Church is essential to salvation; so essential that without it none can be saved. But the necessity of belonging likewise to the Body of the Church, though a real one, may in certain cases offer no obstacle to salvation. This happens whenever invincible ignorance so shrouds a man's intellectual vision, that he ceases to be responsible before God for the light which he does not see"? The refutation of this monstrous opinion is sufficiently given in all we have said before. The very Allocution of Pius IX., from which the Rev. N. Russo quotes, is a direct condemnation of such monstrous opinions. (See Preface)

    Now these modern would-be theologians are not ashamed to assure us most solemnly that their opinions are the doctrine held by almost all theologians, and yet they cannot quote one proof from Holy Scripture, or from the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, to give the least support to their opinions.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.