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Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 23327 times)

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #100 on: May 31, 2018, 01:00:39 PM »
http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/BaptDes-Proofed.pdf

Modern theologians categorize?  How does that stack up against the teaching of Christ that without water and the Holy Spirit, anathema?  Bod is a contradiction, denies the omnipotence of God, the necessity of Baptism, and was never held or taught in antiquity, except to be redressed by Augustine who soundly tossed it in the round file.  People who promote bod do so at the expense of the ignorant and unbaptized who might otherwise take greater pains to get the Sacrament of Baptism.      

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #101 on: May 31, 2018, 01:04:13 PM »
Sections II, III, and IV in the linked article clearly demonstrate the both Baptism of Desire and of Blood are "held by common consent".


Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #102 on: May 31, 2018, 01:33:48 PM »
Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, on The Sacraments, Question 68 - Of Those Who Receive Baptism, Second Article - Whether a Man Can Be Saved without Baptism?

"I answer that, The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wish to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacraments, in regard to those who have the use of free-will.  Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire:  for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism.  And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly.  Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."


(The council fathers at Trent placed the Summa theologiae on the altar during their deliberations.)

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Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #103 on: May 31, 2018, 01:53:25 PM »
Sections II, III, and IV in the linked article clearly demonstrate the both Baptism of Desire and of Blood are "held by common consent".
So what, we do not owe our submission of faith to anything on account of the common consent of theologians - if we did, we'd all be NO because the common consent of theologians all hold the NO to be de fide.

We owe our submission of faith to points of doctrine which have "been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world." It is for "this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith".

Our Lord taught the sacrament was needed or no one gets to heaven, that is the teaching which was handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world and enjoys the universal and constant consent of theologians, not a BOD.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #104 on: May 31, 2018, 02:11:23 PM »
Sections II, III, and IV in the linked article clearly demonstrate the both Baptism of Desire and of Blood are "held by common consent".
Who cares what Cekada thinks?  He's no authority. His argument is in part with the Feeneyites and flawed throughout.   For instance he says:
"They did not, however, unanimously defend an error as a doctrine of the faith."  Bottom of page 6

This is a logical fallacy in this context because it begs the question and suggests that since its impossible for theologians to unanimously defend an error as a doctrine of the faith, then bod is a doctrine of the faith.  False on at least two accounts, but probably several more.  First: Bod was criticized heavily by Saints and not held unanimously, not to mention it was intermittently crushed by Councils like Trent whose canons make it impossible for anyone to be saved without Sacramental water as canons 2 and 5 on baptism so clearly say.  Second: Only recent theologians even remotely suggest bod is/might be a doctrine.  And that is a fairly recent development.  I spoke to big daddy bod'er Fr. William Most before he died, and neither he, nor any of his buddies even dared to suggest bod was a doctrine.  Back in the early 90s I specifically asked Fr. Peter Stravinskas visiting to solidify the acceptance of bod at our parish, if bod was a Catholic doctrine and he squirmed for 10 minutes before he admitted "no".  At least he was honest about it.
Undermining Baptism is a far greater evil than not believing people are sailing off to heaven without Baptism.  Without begging the question (by answering that its a teaching) what good is accomplished for my believing it?  Does it benefit the dying guy who isn't going to get Baptism? Does it benefit those who fear when people don't get Baptism?  What Catholics believe about a 'maybe' amounts to vaporware.  
Conversely, not believing bod has lots of benefits!  How much more studious, diligent, concerned and harder working would people be if they didn't placate themselves with bod that all but eliminates their responsibility to do more.
If I don't believe bod and defend the necessity of Baptism, everything's fine and my position in the Church is fine.  
If I don't believe the Words of Christ, that water and the Holy Ghost are necessary, anathema sit.