Author Topic: From a Soul in Purgatory  (Read 1468 times)

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Offline JPaul

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Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2018, 07:56:40 PM »
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  • From the Baltimore Catechism;

    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
    It does not matter what he believes. If he does not know that the Church is the True Church, it is he that is at fault, because he ought to know that it is. He is obliged to have found the truth of the Catholic Religion.
    This individual firmly believes and practices a meaningless and false religion which will gain him nothing but eternal damnation.
    This is all speculation by which to satisfy the human need for a way other than that which the
    Lord has set down and reguires of each man who would be saved.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #31 on: April 12, 2018, 05:20:43 PM »
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  • From the Baltimore Catechism;

    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
    it is pretty much impossible for any non-Catholic over the age of reason to die without mortal sin. without penance that one time they masturbated as a teen will still damn them even if they lived a near perfect life otherwise. 


    Offline xavierpope

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #32 on: April 12, 2018, 08:17:55 PM »
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  • .
    Protestants don't believe in Purgatory why would they go there?
    .
    No Protestant, as a Protestant, can ever go to Heaven this is a defined Catholic dogma and if you don't believe it then you can't go to heaven, either, as if you were Protestant.
    .
    Then why did padre pio tell his co-monks to pray for the soul of the king of england... who was protestant.

    Offline poche

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #33 on: April 12, 2018, 10:43:47 PM »
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  • It does not matter what he believes. If he does not know that the Church is the True Church, it is he that is at fault, because he ought to know that it is. He is obliged to have found the truth of the Catholic Religion.
    This individual firmly believes and practices a meaningless and false religion which will gain him nothing but eternal damnation.
    This is all speculation by which to satisfy the human need for a way other than that which the
    Lord has set down and reguires of each man who would be saved.
    If a person's ignorance is invincible then his judgement is very different from one who was raised as a Catholic. Jesus said, "To whom much is given, much will be required." and also, The servant who knew his master's wishes will recieve more stripes than the one who didn't." The angels sang at the birth of Christ, "et pax hominis bonae voluntatis." (and peace to men of good will.) they did not sing "et pax bonae Catholicam."    

    Offline poche

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #34 on: April 12, 2018, 10:44:25 PM »
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  • it is pretty much impossible for any non-Catholic over the age of reason to die without mortal sin. without penance that one time they masturbated as a teen will still damn them even if they lived a near perfect life otherwise.
    It is said that the Blessed Imelda died without mortal sin.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #35 on: April 14, 2018, 03:09:48 PM »
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  • It is said that the Blessed Imelda died without mortal sin.

    poche, forlon stated "any non-Catholic", why bring up a Catholic example? Applies and oranges.
    The Mahometan Paradise, however, is only fit for beasts; for filthy sensual pleasure is all the believer has to expect there. - St. Alphonsus

    For when they shall rise again from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be married, but are as the angels - Mark 12:25

    Offline trad123

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #36 on: April 14, 2018, 03:17:15 PM »
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  • Quote
    If a person's ignorance is invincible then his judgement is very different from one who was raised as a Catholic.

    Who will contest that?

    Father Michael Muller's writing on invincible ignorance has been posted and quoted in threads, many times. It neither saves nor damns a person.

    To paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinas, one who keeps the moral law will learn the truths of the faith, by an angel if necessary.
    The Mahometan Paradise, however, is only fit for beasts; for filthy sensual pleasure is all the believer has to expect there. - St. Alphonsus

    For when they shall rise again from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be married, but are as the angels - Mark 12:25

    Offline poche

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #37 on: April 14, 2018, 10:24:48 PM »
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  • it is pretty much impossible for any non-Catholic over the age of reason to die without mortal sin. without penance that one time they masturbated as a teen will still damn them even if they lived a near perfect life otherwise.
    If they make an act of perfect contrition then they can be saved. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #38 on: April 15, 2018, 07:40:11 AM »
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  • If they make an act of perfect contrition then they can be saved.

    Uhm, mortal sin isn't even an issue on the radar if someone is not Catholic, is outside the Church, and does not have supernatural faith.  Perfect contrition is not possible for someone who isn't a Catholic. You guys really have gone full Pelagian, haven't you?


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #39 on: April 15, 2018, 10:21:58 AM »
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  • Uhm, mortal sin isn't even an issue on the radar if someone is not Catholic, is outside the Church, and does not have supernatural faith.  Perfect contrition is not possible for someone who isn't a Catholic. You guys really have gone full Pelagian, haven't you?
    BOD is definitely Pelagian. These people claim to believe in original sin and yet deny it has any effects whatsoever. 

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #40 on: April 15, 2018, 01:47:55 PM »
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  • It is said that the Blessed Imelda died without mortal sin.
    It is said! Well that proves it then! And especially of those who do not have the life of the Trinity within them!
    Poche has managed to outdo even the idea of baptism by implicit desire: those of “good will” are now not sanctified at death if they haven’t been able to be baptised but are instead translated into the state of sanctifying grace during their life by their implicit desire! How much more then is every Catechumen sanctified the moment he resolves to be baptised, before the sacrament is even received! Hallelujah! Baptism is entirely redundant! 


    Offline Theosist

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #41 on: April 15, 2018, 01:59:04 PM »
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  • If they make an act of perfect contrition then they can be saved.
     Perfect contrition is impossible without supernatural faith, which is impossible without having already been translated into the state of sanctifying grace which this act of perfect contrition is posited by you to effect.
    This is an inescapable logical circle.
    Not only that, but perfect contrition cannot remove original sin, that is, effect what the Council of Trent formulates as a translation from being born sons of Adam to being adopted sons of God through Christ. Have you missed the essential point of the Gospel? Have you even read them and St. Paul? We are reborn through faith - not contrition, not hope, not charity, not good works - through faith, faith in Jesus Christ. None of these other things can even please God without faith - they count for absolutely nothing   at the judgment of our soul without it.

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #42 on: April 15, 2018, 02:05:09 PM »
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  • BOD is definitely Pelagian. These people claim to believe in original sin and yet deny it has any effects whatsoever.
    This is not even Christianity anymore. Denial of the necessity of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a denial of the central theme of the Catholic doctrine of justification and of the Gospel itself. I don’t even know how it’s possible for someone to open the New Testament and read and maintain this nonsense.

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #43 on: April 15, 2018, 02:20:17 PM »
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  • Question: was Adam originally without sin?

    Next question: was this sinless state sufficient for Adam, who was immortal, to earn or possess the Beatific Vision?

    Final question: if this was not sufficient for Adam before he fell, how do you imagine that dying without sin but also without Christ , even if that were possible, would be sufficient to get to Heaven?

    Heaven cannot be earned. It is a gift, and that gift begins with the life of the Trinity within us that we obtain through faith and the sacrament of faith. What does it matter if I am spotless and do not know Christ? The most I could hope for would be freedom from the positive punishments of Hell.

     

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