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Author Topic: From a Soul in Purgatory  (Read 4096 times)

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Offline poche

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Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2018, 10:44:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 12, 2018, 05:20:43 PM
    it is pretty much impossible for any non-Catholic over the age of reason to die without mortal sin. without penance that one time they masturbated as a teen will still damn them even if they lived a near perfect life otherwise.
    It is said that the Blessed Imelda died without mortal sin.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #31 on: April 14, 2018, 03:09:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: poche on April 12, 2018, 10:44:25 PM
    It is said that the Blessed Imelda died without mortal sin.

    poche, forlon stated "any non-Catholic", why bring up a Catholic example? Applies and oranges.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #32 on: April 14, 2018, 03:17:15 PM »
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    • Quote
    If a person's ignorance is invincible then his judgement is very different from one who was raised as a Catholic.

    Who will contest that?

    Father Michael Muller's writing on invincible ignorance has been posted and quoted in threads, many times. It neither saves nor damns a person.

    To paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinas, one who keeps the moral law will learn the truths of the faith, by an angel if necessary.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline poche

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #33 on: April 14, 2018, 10:24:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 12, 2018, 05:20:43 PM
    it is pretty much impossible for any non-Catholic over the age of reason to die without mortal sin. without penance that one time they masturbated as a teen will still damn them even if they lived a near perfect life otherwise.
    If they make an act of perfect contrition then they can be saved. 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #34 on: April 15, 2018, 07:40:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on April 14, 2018, 10:24:48 PM
    If they make an act of perfect contrition then they can be saved.

    Uhm, mortal sin isn't even an issue on the radar if someone is not Catholic, is outside the Church, and does not have supernatural faith.  Perfect contrition is not possible for someone who isn't a Catholic. You guys really have gone full Pelagian, haven't you?

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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #35 on: April 15, 2018, 10:21:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 15, 2018, 07:40:11 AM
    Uhm, mortal sin isn't even an issue on the radar if someone is not Catholic, is outside the Church, and does not have supernatural faith.  Perfect contrition is not possible for someone who isn't a Catholic. You guys really have gone full Pelagian, haven't you?
    BOD is definitely Pelagian. These people claim to believe in original sin and yet deny it has any effects whatsoever. 
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    Offline Theosist

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #36 on: April 15, 2018, 01:47:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: poche on April 12, 2018, 10:44:25 PM
    It is said that the Blessed Imelda died without mortal sin.
    It is said! Well that proves it then! And especially of those who do not have the life of the Trinity within them!
    Poche has managed to outdo even the idea of baptism by implicit desire: those of “good will” are now not sanctified at death if they haven’t been able to be baptised but are instead translated into the state of sanctifying grace during their life by their implicit desire! How much more then is every Catechumen sanctified the moment he resolves to be baptised, before the sacrament is even received! Hallelujah! Baptism is entirely redundant! 
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    Offline Theosist

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #37 on: April 15, 2018, 01:59:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: poche on April 14, 2018, 10:24:48 PM
    If they make an act of perfect contrition then they can be saved.
     Perfect contrition is impossible without supernatural faith, which is impossible without having already been translated into the state of sanctifying grace which this act of perfect contrition is posited by you to effect.
    This is an inescapable logical circle.
    Not only that, but perfect contrition cannot remove original sin, that is, effect what the Council of Trent formulates as a translation from being born sons of Adam to being adopted sons of God through Christ. Have you missed the essential point of the Gospel? Have you even read them and St. Paul? We are reborn through faith - not contrition, not hope, not charity, not good works - through faith, faith in Jesus Christ. None of these other things can even please God without faith - they count for absolutely nothing   at the judgment of our soul without it.
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    Offline Theosist

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #38 on: April 15, 2018, 02:05:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 15, 2018, 10:21:58 AM
    BOD is definitely Pelagian. These people claim to believe in original sin and yet deny it has any effects whatsoever.
    This is not even Christianity anymore. Denial of the necessity of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a denial of the central theme of the Catholic doctrine of justification and of the Gospel itself. I don’t even know how it’s possible for someone to open the New Testament and read and maintain this nonsense.
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    Offline Theosist

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    Re: From a Soul in Purgatory
    « Reply #39 on: April 15, 2018, 02:20:17 PM »
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    • Question: was Adam originally without sin?

    Next question: was this sinless state sufficient for Adam, who was immortal, to earn or possess the Beatific Vision?

    Final question: if this was not sufficient for Adam before he fell, how do you imagine that dying without sin but also without Christ , even if that were possible, would be sufficient to get to Heaven?

    Heaven cannot be earned. It is a gift, and that gift begins with the life of the Trinity within us that we obtain through faith and the sacrament of faith. What does it matter if I am spotless and do not know Christ? The most I could hope for would be freedom from the positive punishments of Hell.
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