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Author Topic: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus  (Read 7921 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2023, 09:42:49 PM »
The Athanasian Creed

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm




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Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.




Pius IX - 1849
Nostis Et Nobiscuм
On the Church in the Pontifical States

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9nostis.htm





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10. In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.






Mirari Vos
On Liberalism and Religious Indifferentism
Gregory XVI - 1832




https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm




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13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.

Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever.

They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”





Pope Gregory XVI - 1832

Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm





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2. Therefore, guided by the example of Our predecessors, We are grieved to hear reports from your dioceses which indicate that some of the people committed to your care freely encourage mixed marriages.


Furthermore, they are promoting opinions contrary to the Catholic faith:


[ . . . ]

Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.





Pius IX

On Promotion of False Doctrines, 1863

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm




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7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

19.

(. . .)

Let us pray that the errant be flooded with the light of his divine grace, may turn back from the path of error into the way of truth and justice and, experiencing the worthy fruit of repentance, may possess perpetual love and fear of his holy name.





Leo XIII

On Mission Societies, 1880

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13mis.htm




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6.

[ . . . ]

Do men like these pour forth their prayers to God that in His mercy he may bring to the Divine light of the Gospel by His victorious grace the people sitting in the darkness?




Pius IX

Allocution to the cardinals on the Consistory of the 17th of December, 1847:

The life of Pope Pius IX and the great events in the history of the Church during his pontificate by John Gilmary Shea, published 1877, pgs. 97 - 103

https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfPopePiusIX1877





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It is assuredly not unknown to you, venerable brethren, that in our times many of the enemies of the Catholic faith especially direct their efforts toward placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or of confounding it therewith, and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions.


But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system. (. . .) as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life." We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.





Pope Pius XI - 1928
Mortalium Animos
On Religious Unity



https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius11/p11morta.htm



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13.

[ . . . ]

We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity.







Saint John Eudes

Man's Contract with God in Baptism

pages 49 - 52


https://archive.org/details/MansContractWithGodInBaptism/page/n45/mode/2up



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That you may have a true faith in those things which God has revealed, it is necessary that you should believe in the Catholic Church, in which alone you can learn with certainty what God has revealed. For this reason, after you have been asked if you believe in God, you are also asked if you believe in the Catholic Church.

Certainly those who do not believe in the Catholic Church cannot have divine faith in the mysteries which they believe, but only natural and human faith; a faith of their own fancy, founded on the light of their own judgment, subject to error, and not on the promises of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church alone possesses these promises, and on her testimony alone rests the foundation of Christian faith. As she possesses the divine promises for all days, even to the end of ages, there can be no reason to doubt whatever she proposes to our belief.

Thank God for having given you the precious gift of faith, and having made you a child of the holy Catholic Church, which is the faithful repository of the truths of salvation, and which all Christians are obliged to acknowledge as the true Church. In saying, “I believe in the holy Catholic Church’ you united yourself inseparably to this holy mother; you believe, without hesitation, all that she proposes, as proposed to you by Jesus Christ himself, who is ever with her in her instructions. Reject, then, with horror, everything at variance with her teachings, and regard it as an error calculated to endanger your faith.

However ignorant you may be, you have the true faith if you believe, without exception, all the holy Catholic Church believes and teaches; on the other hand, however learned you may be, you lose the gift and the virtue of faith if you reject any doctrine which she teaches; for her faith is your rule. “As there is but one faith,” says St. Paul, “to wish to divide it, is to destroy it.” Heretics not only differ from the Church in faith, but they also differ amongst themselves, a proof that they have not the true faith, which is one. The holy Catholic Church never has suffered, and never will suffer, a difference of faith in regard to any article. Her faith is the same in all times, in all places, and in all her true children. Thus her faith is one and the only true faith. You should be most desirous to preserve the faith in all its purity, since without it, it is impossible to do anything which merits Heaven. “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” Those who do not possess it may practice all the moral virtues, justice, sobriety, chastity, alms-deeds, prayers, mortification; and not only is this the case with heretics, but it is a truth which should be borne in mind, that these good actions, unless they have faith for their principle, will never merit Heaven for them. The law of Moses, all holy as it was, could save only those who observed it through faith.

When, therefore, you observe that those who believe not in the Church, practice some good works, offer many prayers, and lead an austere life, do not believe that they are on this account in the way of salvation, unless they have true faith; you commit an ENORMOUS SIN if you believe that they can be saved outside of the Church; that they can have faith without believing in her, or that they can be saved without faith.



Offline trad123

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Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2023, 10:03:17 PM »
The Catholic Dogma by Fr. Muller

CHAPTER V., Part II.



http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/The_Catholic_Dogma/Chapter-V_Part-II.html



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Let us see now what the Rev. A. Young says of the other class of inculpably ignorant Protestants.

In his article "Have Protestants divine faith," published March 22, 1888, in the Buffalo Catholic Union and Times, the Rev. A. Young says:—

“Protestants can have divine faith. That it is possible for some Protestants to have divine faith is a fact I am as certain of as I am that I have such faith myself. I was once a Protestant, and my faith was just as truly and theologically divine, as it is today. I never had human faith, and when I explain myself I honestly believe that a great number of Protestants, could they read my words, would say— ‘You have stated my case exactly.'

"That we may not be misled by any fanciful ideas or notions about what is divine faith, I will give at once the definition of it from the mouth of one of the greatest doctors of the Church—St. Thomas. He says: 'Ipsum credere est actus intellectus assentientis veritati divinae ex imperio voluntatis a Deo motae per gratiam.' (22., q. ii. art. 9.) `To believe is an act of the intellect assenting to divine truth by command of the will moved by the grace of God.' That is an. exact definition of what my belief (faith) was as a Protestant, and in becoming a Catholic IT UNDERWENT NO CHANGE, and plainly could not undergo any."



When St. Thomas says, "Ipsum, (i.e. Deum) credere, to believe God,” etc., he speaks of Catholics who have the true faith, as is evident from all that precedes, especially from q. i., art. 10., in which he says that it belongs especially to the Pope, whom Christ made the visible head of his Church, to see to the arrangement and publication of the symbol of faith.

It is, therefore, to say the least, unwise for the Rev. A. Young to apply to himself and other material heretics what St. Thomas says only of the faith of Catholics; for he says expressly that those who have not the true faith cannot make an act of faith as it ought to be made, that is, in the manner determined by the true faith.

And what St. Thomas means by "Ipsum credere, to believe God," he tells us in q. v., art. 3, in which he says: "The formal object of faith is the First Truth (that is, God himself) such as he is known from Holy Scripture and from the doctrine of the Church, which (doctrine) proceeds from the First Truth.

Hence any one who does not adhere to the infallible and divine rule of faith—to the doctrine of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth as made known in the Holy Scripture, cannot have the habit of faith; but if he holds certain truths of faith, he holds them not by faith, but by some other reasons.

But it is clear that he who adheres to the doctrine of the Church as to the infallible rule of belief, assents to all that the Church teaches; he, however, who chooses to believe some of those truths which the Church teaches, and to reject others, instead of adhering to the doctrine of the Church as the infallible rule of faith, adheres only to his own private will or judgment.





Offline trad123

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Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2023, 10:38:06 PM »
The Spanish Origin of International Law: Francisco de Vitoria and his law of nations by James Brown Scott

Appendix A

Page XXVIII


Francisco de Vitoria




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9. I say accordingly on this point that negligence with regard to the subject-matter is requisite for ignorance, even though it be vincible, to be imputed as, and to be, a sin, as, for example, that the man refused to hear or did not believe what he did hear; and on the other hand I say that for invincible ignorance it is enough that the man bestowed human diligence in trying to learn, even if in other respects he is in mortal sin. And so on this point our judgement is the same concerning one in sin and one in grace, both now and immediately after Christ's coming or after His passion. Adrian could not deny that after our Lord's passion the Jєωs in India or in Spain were invincibly ignorant of His passion, however much they were in mortal sin; nay, he himself has expressly conceded this in his first quaestio, fourth point, on the topic de observantialegalium. And it is certain that the Jєωs who were away from Judaea, whether they were in sin or not, had invincible ignorance about baptism and about the faith of Christ. Just as there could at that time be a case of invincible ignorance on this matter, so there may also be nowadays among those who have not had baptism declared to them.

But the mistake which the doctors in question make is in thinking that when we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the Christian faith it follows at once that a person can be saved without baptism or the Christian faith, which, however, does not follow.

For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but not for the sin of unbelief, as St. Thomas (Secunda Secundae, as above) says, namely, that if they do what in them lies, accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God's providence and He will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ, but it does not therefore follow that if their life be bad, ignorance or unbelief in baptism and the Christian faith may be imputed to them as a sin.



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2023, 10:47:41 PM »
1) You can't be in formal submission to something that doesn't exist.  During an interregnum, Catholics who await the election of the new Pope by the Cardinals are in potential submission to the Pope, but not formal submission.  2) It depends on why the person is mistaken.  Is it because the person was a missionary in America in the 18th century, and didn't know that the former Pope died and a new one had been elected (as in the case of Juniper Serra), or is it because the person rejects the Pope that was elected by the Cardinals and accepted by the entire teaching Church, and instead accepts another, or no one, as the legitimate Pope?  In the latter case, the "mistake" would not constitute formal or potential submission to the Holy Father, nor would it excuse the person from his failure to do what is absolutely necessary for salvation.

As Elwin wrote, the number of errors and stupidities in this post makes it impossible to even begin to unravel.  You clearly don't even know what the terms potential and formal even mean.

Re: Fr Wathen on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2023, 10:52:48 PM »
As Elwin wrote, the number of errors and stupidities in this post makes it impossible to even begin to unravel.  You clearly don't even know what the terms potential and formal even mean.

If there are errors, point them out, and I do indeed know what the terms formal and potency mean.