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Author Topic: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"  (Read 4743 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2023, 08:19:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 21, 2023, 07:37:40 AM
    Yeah, "invincible ignorance" was explained by St. Thomas and also by Pope Pius IX (whose explanation was identical to that of St. Thomas but has been distorted by the enemies of EENS).  Both of them said that no one would be condemned BECAUSE OF invincible ignorance.  This does not mean that they will be saved, just that they will not be punished for their lack of faith.  Faith is a free gift, and simply not having it does not lead to punishment.  What's heresy is to hold that invincible ignorance is salvific, since that's basically Pelagianism.

    Mt 16:16-17   Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

    John 6:66   And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.

    Eph 2:8  For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God 

    Salvation comes by faith and belief in Christ, given by God. God doesn't give "invincible ignorance." Lack of knowledge or faith can never save, and faith is, again, given. 

    We were told heresies and deceptions would abound before the return of Christ, and indeed they are. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #16 on: July 21, 2023, 08:25:39 AM »
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    • Col 2:8   Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ:

    1 Tim 6:20   O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called.

    It's not rocket science. Don't listen to the "theologians" and "philosophers" of "invincible ignorance."
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #17 on: July 21, 2023, 09:36:31 AM »
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    • Great posts, DecemR.  I'm glad we can agree on this.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #18 on: July 21, 2023, 10:28:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 21, 2023, 09:36:31 AM
    Great posts, DecemR.  I'm glad we can agree on this.

    I've never had an issue with someone who held the limited view of BoD held by St. Robert or St. Thomas beyond a relatively friendly disagreement.

    My issue is with those who extend "BoD" so much that it renders EENS utterly meaningless, and destroys Catholic ecclesiology.  I don't believe in BoD for the reasons I've articulated, that there's no Patristic support for its having been revealed, not argument I've ever seen that it's a necessary implication of other revealed truth ... nothing to suggest that it's anything other than pure speculation, which the Church has admittedly permitted.  I have problems with entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, however, without the Baptismal seal.  I'd be less opposed to a theory where individuals who receive BoD also received the Sacramental seal.  I'm open to a theory that those who die with BoD will be baptized at the Resurrection (similar to how the OT just likely were), or theories that angels administer the Sacrament to those dying with BoD.  But this notion of being able to enter the Beatific Vision without the seal seems squarely contrary to the Church Fathers and to everything that's known about this character of the Sacrament.  To me it's not so much about who is saved vs. who isn't ... but about HOW we can and cannot be saved.
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    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #19 on: July 21, 2023, 10:53:51 AM »
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    • Bp. George Hay devoted a large section to the requirement of faith for salvation in volume II of his book, "The Sincere Christian Instructed in the Faith of Christ" (1783).

    "An Inquiry whether Salvation can be had without true Faith, and out of the Communion of the Church of Christ" (pp.231-314):

    https://archive.org/details/bim_eighteenth-century_the-sincere-christian-in_hay-george_1783_2/page/230/mode/2up

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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #20 on: July 21, 2023, 11:19:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 21, 2023, 10:28:59 AM
    I've never had an issue with someone who held the limited view of BoD held by St. Robert or St. Thomas beyond a relatively friendly disagreement.


    I've expressed here a "limited view of BoD" such as that of St. Robert and St. Thomas, but we've had some rather violent disagreements on the issue. I guess your "relatively friendly" would allow for what I describe as "violent disagreement," since, well, a subjective or "relative" assessment of the level or quality of the disagreement obtains there.     :laugh1:
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #21 on: July 21, 2023, 11:33:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on July 21, 2023, 11:19:15 AM

    I've expressed here a "limited view of BoD" such as that of St. Robert and St. Thomas, but we've had some rather violent disagreements on the issue. I guess your "relatively friendly" would allow for what I describe as "violent disagreement," since, well, a subjective or "relative" assessment of the level or quality of the disagreement obtains there.     :laugh1:

    Nah, the issues I've had with you have been more along the lines of the R&R question ... into which you sometimes injected the BoD question.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #22 on: July 21, 2023, 12:22:46 PM »
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    • Quote
    I've never had an issue with someone who held the limited view of BoD held by St. Robert or St. Thomas beyond a relatively friendly disagreement.

    My issue is with those who extend "BoD" so much that it renders EENS utterly meaningless, and destroys Catholic ecclesiology.  I don't believe in BoD for the reasons I've articulated, that there's no Patristic support for its having been revealed, not argument I've ever seen that it's a necessary implication of other revealed truth ... nothing to suggest that it's anything other than pure speculation, which the Church has admittedly permitted.  I have problems with entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, however, without the Baptismal seal.  I'd be less opposed to a theory where individuals who receive BoD also received the Sacramental seal.  I'm open to a theory that those who die with BoD will be baptized at the Resurrection (similar to how the OT just likely were), or theories that angels administer the Sacrament to those dying with BoD.  But this notion of being able to enter the Beatific Vision without the seal seems squarely contrary to the Church Fathers and to everything that's known about this character of the Sacrament.  To me it's not so much about who is saved vs. who isn't ... but about HOW we can and cannot be saved.
    Agree 100%.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #23 on: July 21, 2023, 05:26:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 21, 2023, 07:31:33 AM
     I hold that some who lived lives of natural virtue suffer very little, and I believe that there are those who can approximate or even reach the same state as infants in Limbo.  There are in fact probably some Native Americans existing in some "Happy Hunting Ground".  So the view of Heaven and Hell being just binary states, where you're either happy beyond words or in an extreme cauldron of torment has actually done a lot to inspire the rejection of EENS dogma.
    But if ignorance is punishment for sin wouldn't these invincible ignorant people be condemned for their other sins?
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