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Author Topic: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"  (Read 4747 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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  • The "Unsaints"
    -  A commentary on Doctrine, Salvation and invincible ignorance, by Fr Wathen


    Ex Cathedra definitions:

    There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved  (Pope Innocent III, 1215).

    We declare, say, define and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff  (Pope Boniface VIII, 1302).

    The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jєωs, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' [Matthew 25:1], unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into the Church; also that unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church's sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, alms deeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church  (Pope Eugene IV, 1441).


    Some friends wrote me: 
    "We note in your book, "Who Shall Ascend?", you quote encyclicals of Pope Pius IX 1849, 1864, 1863, and 1854, but not 1856, in which he seems to admit to the possibility of a person being saved because they may be excused through ignorance beyond their control.  We have written to Father M. of the Redemptorists [a Traditionalist priest] and he replies that we must assent to Pope Pius IX's encyclical.  We are confused on this point, and hope you can clarify it for us."

    Included in their letter was a copy of an article by Father M., which appeared in a periodical called “Catholic”, published in Scotland.  Therein he quotes Pope Pius IX’s encyclical, Singulari quidem, in which that celebrated Pontiff says:  “Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.”

    The letter above suggests that I may purposely have omitted Pope Pius’ words in Singulari quidem.  No, but in my book, Who Shall Ascend?, I made an effort to prepare the reader for this kind of problem.  After quoting Popes Innocent III, Boniface VIII and Eugene IV (the above ‘Ex Cathedra’ definitions), I added a number of points which we must accept as inescapable corollaries to these definitions.  Number 7 of these is:

    Since the aforementioned formula (Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus…EENS...Outside the Church there is no salvation) is a doctrine of Catholicity, it is the standard of orthodoxy on the subject of salvation: which is to say, all writers, whether they be saints and/or Doctors, of old or of late, all popes and theologians, of whatever era, and their pronouncements, are reliable in their treatment of this subject, if they accept and support it. 

    Their testimony or opinions are useless (at best), if they do not, this regardless of any other contribution they may have made to Catholic erudition.  The same must be said of the works of all Catholic writers  (from “Who Shall Ascend?”).

    My friends should therefore understand that no assent need be given to Pope Pius’ quote, until it is shown to be consonant with the 3 ex cathedra definitions given above.  This would seem to be Father M’s task – and all others who hold the same opinion that “invincible ignorance” is a substitute for Faith and membership in the Mystical Body.

    In my book, I observed that it is an exceedingly rare thing for any priest who ventures into the subject of the doctrine of exclusive salvation to acknowledge these 3 papal pronouncements.  One cannot avoid the impression that they have the idea that, if they do not acknowledge them, they have no existence, and they are not bound under pain of damnation to accept them.  Prudence dictates that no one should ever touch upon this subject, if he does not accept these definitions, nor should he presume to teach others anything about this matter until he gets his own faith in order.

    Number 15 of the aforementioned corollaries of these definitions is in Chapter One:

    Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away…He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, EENS (Outside the Church there is no Salvation), and ends by denying it – while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so.  He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula, then to weasel out of it. 

    What he ought to do is one of two things: either admit that he does not believe this dogma (also in the same breath, that he does not believe in the dogma of the Church’s Infallibility); or he should allow for the possibility that there is something about the Catholic doctrine of salvation of which he is unaware, or which he refuses to accept, or has been misled into denying.

    Like most others who write on this subject, Father M demonstrates the usual tunnel vision, sentimentally compelled as he is to deliver as many people from Hell as possible.  Apparently, it has never occurred to him what great theological complications he calls up for himself and his readers by suggesting that salvation has been, is now, and will be, granted by Almighty God to countless billions through the centuries – possibly many more than will ever be in the Church – whose only qualification is ignorance.

    How blithely and in what a cavalier manner does Father M treat this subject, and finish with it, as if there really is nothing to the matter at all.  He is able to do this because he will not be subject to “cross examination”.  I shall recommend to my friends that they get back to him and ask for further elucidation.  Having asserted his position, now he should have to defend it.

    What follows are questions which those who say that there are two ways of salvation (one through the Catholic Faith, the other through “invincible ignorance” of it) must be able to answer.  These questions are many, because this position is altogether without logic; it is clearly contrary to the teachings of the Holy Scriptures; it is a denial of the papal definitions quoted above, and it introduces us to a “dark horde” of individuals, who will supposedly occupy the bleachers of Heaven, upon whom I bestow the appellative of “The Unsaints”.

    1.    Catholic Doctrine has it that immediately upon his death, every man appears before Christ for his Particular Judgement.  At this Judgement, Christ judges him on the basis of his response to the Gospel.  It must be asked:  What is the basis upon which those who died ignorant of the Gospel are judged?  Or, in view of the fact that the Gospel had no place in their lives, are they exempted from this Judgement?  Are they simply waved on into Heaven?

    2.    Since these billions were human beings and, like us Catholics, have been sinning since birth, we must ask:  Does their ignorance exempt them from both the Judgement and all punishment due to their sins?  Or are they consigned to Purgatory to atone for their sins?  Is it just to punish them for sins of which they were also ignorant?  How will they atone for their mortal sins, which merit eternal punishment?  Will they simply do a longer stint in Purgatory than those who died in the state of grace, or will Almighty God waive this debt also?

    3.    Are those who die in ignorance of the Faith in the state of grace?  If they die in the state of Original Sin, having been born in this state due to their descendance from Adam and Eve, where, when and how are they delivered from Original Sin, and when are they forgiven their actual sins?  Does their ignorance render them sinless besides, so that, having died, they are admitted immediately into Heaven, as the only proper place for them?

    4.    We have always been told that Heaven is a reward.  What are these ignorant people being rewarded for?  For getting through life without finding out about the Faith?  For eschewing knowledge?  For having avoided Catholics who would have clued them in on what their Creator enjoins upon them?

    5.    Where is the justice of granting Heaven to these billions of people, who lived without faith, hope or charity (the supernatural love of God)?  For example, St Lawrence was roasted on a gridiron; Saints Felicitas and Perpetua were mauled by lions in the Roman Coliseum; St Sabina was fastened to an iron chair which had been heated in a furnace and died only after the third day of this torture; St Padre Pio suffered the pain of the nails of the crucifixion in his hands and feet for most of his adult life.  And since the days of the Apostles, Catholics have suffered and labored and abstained and prayed for Divine mercy and heavenly deliverance.  Where is the justice in God’s requiring so much from these, when it was unnecessary and pointless?

    6.    Since all these billions of people die knowing nothing of the revelations of Christ – the most Blessed Trinity, the Incarnation, Grace, the Church, Heaven, Purgatory, Hell, etc – when are they going to learn about them?  Having learned of God, will they love Him?  Does this mean that in the case of us Catholics, the choice of whether we will love God eternally or hate Him must be made before our deaths, but in the case of all these others, it is made afterwards?  What is the source for this teaching?  Is it the teaching of some pope, or saint, or one of the great Fathers? 

    In the Baltimore Catechism, the question is asked:

    Q.  Why did God make you?
    A.  God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

    Fr M has populated Heaven with billions of “Unsaints” who in this life never knew God, did not love Him, and never served Him.  At the same time, he has totally inverted the order of creation.  St Paul says that we are created for the “praise of His glory”, which means that God made us for Himself; He made us that we might manifest in ourselves His goodness and holiness.  We were to manifest His glory by showing forth the glory of the Son of God, who redeemed us and sanctified us in His blood.  It is in our sanctification, in our being sanctified and being transfigured in the image of His Divine Son, that the Father has demonstrated His infinite love and mercy and power to be extolled forever.  In their sanctity, the angels and the saints will give everlasting glory to the most Blessed Trinity – to the Father, through the Son, and by the grace of the Holy Ghost – not only by their worship, but by the splendid virtuousness of their sanctified persons.

    According to this understanding, numbers count for nothing.  The Redemption would be no less grand if only one person were transformed from a sinful child of Adam to one who resembled in his soul and body the God Man, because in order that such be accomplished, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost would have had to do all that they did to make it possible.  Furthermore, Heaven would be no less joyous for that one person who had been redeemed by the cross of Christ, as he would enjoy the Beatific Vision no less, and sing the praises of the Godhead in union with the vast assembly of the angels throughout eternity.

    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, to all the saints who are at Ephesus and to all the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1)

    Those to whom St Paul’s letter was addressed were all Catholic “saints”, in the sense that they had been cleansed of all sin at their Baptisms; they were “faithful” because they had accepted the Gospel of Christ.  Fr M’s “unsaints” are not mentioned here.

    Grace be to you and peace, from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Blessed be the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ.
    (Ephesians 1:2-3).

    The “spiritual blessings in heavenly places” are all the spiritual benefits which the Christians of Ephesus have received from God through Christ (and His Church):  the doctrines of the Faith, the “Law” of Christ (moral guidance), the sacraments, the revelation and promise of Heaven, etc.  Fr M’s “unChristians” have received none of these blessings, but, supposedly, are just as well off without them.  Why, then, is St Paul thanking God for having bestowed them?

    As He [the Father] chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in His [the Father’s] sight in charity (Ephesians 1:4).

    Fr M’s “unsaints” received no such vocation; nor were they predestinated for salvation before the world’s creation; neither have they been made holy and unspotted in the sight of God.  But it makes no difference.

    Who [the Father] hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto Himself [the Father]: according to the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1:5).

    The “unsaints” were not predestinated, have not been, and never will be God’s adopted children.  Their salvation was not achieved through Christ, with Whom they have no relationship.

    Unto the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He hath graced us, in His beloved Son (Ephesians 1:6)

    All that the Father has achieved through Christ in the creation and redemption of the faithful He has done “unto the praise of the glory of His grace” which means that the ultimate purpose of all that He has done or will ever do “extra Se” (everything), was and will ever be “for the praise of His glory”.  We praise the infinite God especially for the suffering and death of His most holy Son.  For God to impose upon His beloved Son the terrible burden of men’s sins, so that He could atone for them through His degrading and excruciating death, demands the grateful response of all men on earth, and everlasting praise and thanksgiving in the next.  Hardly less credible is that such a stupendous thing could have happened and not be told of and believed and extolled by every man who lived ever after.

    The salvation of the ignorant is not for the praise of God’s glory; it has one purpose only: to deliver these faceless beings from Hell.  Their salvation is nothing more than “situating” them in Heaven.  What they will do there, we wait for Father M and the other priests who have lately discovered their existence to explain to us.

    In whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of His grace (Ephesians 1:7)

    The “unsaints” have not been redeemed, their salvation is not due to Christ, their sins are still unremitted, and they receive no grace.  Yet, they are taken to Heaven because there is no other place to put them.

    Which hath superabounded in us, in all wisdom and prudence, that He might make known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure, which He that purposed in Him,In the dispensation of the fullness of times, to establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in Him (Ephesians 1:8-10)

    The “fullness of times” began with the coming of Jesus of Nazareth, the Savior of the world; it will continue until Christ’s Second Coming.  The “unsaints” are not part of the glorious “recapitulation”, which Christ effected through His death and Resurrection, and the establishment of the Church as an extension of Heaven on earth.

    In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things according to the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11).

    St Paul emphasizes that all that has been done from eternity, which pertains to God’s allowing His human children to participate in the Redemption and to enjoy its fruits, has been the fulfillment of eternal design.  The “unsaints”, for all their great numbers, do not figure into this scheme at all, since there is nothing holy or wonderous about their salvation.  They are just human beings for whom God has found a place out of harm’s way.  In Heaven, they have neither value nor purpose.

    That we may be unto the praise of His glory: we who before hoped in Christ (Ephesians 1:12).

    The reason that God has saved the predestinated is “the praise of His glory”, which is the best and most worthy reason He could have had.  The reason the “unsaints” are saved is cause of no glory to God, because, being unredeemed and unworthy of Heaven, they are just a great horde of people whose salvation has no value in the Divine scheme of things.  In their charity, the angels and saints welcome them, but social intercourse with them is, at best, difficult.

    In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation), in whom also believing, you were signed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).

    Having believed the Gospel, which was necessary for their salvation, the Christians of Ephesus received the indelible marks of Baptism and of Confirmation, identifying them as having been saved by Christ, and mystically united to Him as His members in the Church.  In Heaven, these indelible marks are visible and proclaim Christ as their Savior.

    The “unsaints” receive no such marks.  In Heaven, they are completely nondescript, identified by their want of any association with Christ, and by their uselessness to God.  Heaven for them is nothing more than a place where they have been gathered.

    Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of His glory? (Ephesians 1:14)

    That they have been saved by Christ is the assurance of heavenly deliverance to the Ephesians, for He joyfully regards them as an acquisition made by the shedding of His blood.  In Heaven, their having been saved will redound to His everlasting glory.

    Father M, and many other priests, teach the strange doctrine that in Heaven, besides the angels and the saints, there is a third contingent, a vast throng “which no man could number”, the unbaptized, the unbelieving, the unsanctified, the “unsaints”.  Apparently, once they bypassed the Judgement Seat of Christ, Whom they never knew, Whose teaching they did not need, and Whose grace they have done very well without, they were given the “Light of Glory”, a special gift and power, whereby they are able to see God, Whom, until now, they had never heard of, never believed in, never served, and never needed.  They still have Original Sin, which is guilt of Adam, and their souls are still full of the seven capital vices.  They have no virtue.  They are the celestial equivalent of welfare recipients in socialist states.  Their ignorance has given them a free ride, all-expense-paid salvation.

    We have no way of knowing whether they are all glad to be in Heaven.  Satan and his angels were in Heaven, and preferred to go to Hell, rather than submit to the rule of Christ, the God Man, and the Virgin Mary, Heaven’s Queen.  Will any of these faithless individuals decide that Heaven is a bit too stodgy for their taste and ask – no, demand – to be freed?  Will they willingly thank God; will they admire, adore and praise His goodness and perfection?  You and I do not know the answer to these questions, but presumably Father M and his sacerdotal kindred, who also believe in the eighth sacrament of Ignorance, do.  They must, in order to be able to defend their curious theology.

    From “Who Shall Ascend?”:

    This doctrine [of exclusive salvation] is a mystery, as are all sacred dogmas of the Faith.  This means that it cannot be fully understood, nor adequately explained.  As with other dogmas, were this truth self-evident, or provable, or comprehensible, there would be little reason for the Church to define it.

    The mysteries of the Faith have two aspects: one is the doctrine itself, which is so bright, so luminous, as to blind and, in a manner of speaking, to short-circuit the mind.  The other is its “dark” aspect (if I may express it so); the reverse side of the coin, so to speak, is that about the truth which is incomprehensible, that part of the doctrine which we cannot understand and will never understand on earth. 

    The blinding aspect of the mystery of the Redemption is that God gave Himself up in sacrifice to save His human creatures.  Its incomprehensible aspect is the fact that the infinite God would suffer in order to save men from eternal death.  The blinding aspect of the mystery of exclusive salvation is the truth that only those who have entered the Church by the sacrament of Baptism and have been sanctified by its sacraments and discipline can be saved.  What is beyond all understanding is the truth that the “Elect” of God is comprised of such a tiny minority of the world’s population from the time of Pentecost until the end of the world.

    Due to this “dark aspect” of the mystery, people with the best intentions cannot help but ask how it can be that, from all appearances, God allows such multitudes to suffer the fate of the condemned children of Adam, many of whom seem in no way evil and rebellious?  Is there nothing that He can do to save more of them?  How is it just that they are denied what others are undeservedly given?

    It is in this spirit that some have conjured up exceptions to and circuities around the doctrine, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  This is why we hear of more than one form of Baptism, the “soul” of the Church, and salvation through ignorance.  We see a pretense of ignorance of the fact that the Church has spoken clearly and emphatically that it is only through her pastoral ministrations that anyone can be rendered worthy of eternal salvation.

    For our consolation, the Church teaches us that no one enters Heaven unless he has merited it, and no one is condemned to Hell unless he deserves it.  The great joy of Heaven is not the knowledge that one has escaped Hell, but in loving God, Who is the infinite Good, Who alone can satisfy the fathomless craving of the human heart.  Furthermore, however things appear to us, everyone in Hell not only chose to go there, but also – and this cannot be emphasized enough – freely chooses to remain there, because he refuses to serve God and to love Him more than he loves himself.  We do not understand these things, but we believe them, because God has revealed them to us.

    After all this is said, the question remains unanswered whether Father M believes the dogma of exclusive salvation, as the Church has defined it, without any of his (and others’) attenuations.  If he does not, then his orthodoxy is questionable.  He should not be allowed to teach, preach, or write on theological subjects, until he has given evidence that he has submitted to the infallible magisterium.  For any priest to teach that ‘all those who are ignorant of the Faith will be saved’ is a colossal error, which is hopelessly indefensible and unfounded.  It marks one as a true disciple of Pope John Paul II and the presently-reigning Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI, as well as many less well-known heretics.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #1 on: July 20, 2023, 04:29:47 AM »
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  • Quote
    What is beyond all understanding is the truth that the “Elect” of God is comprised of such a tiny minority of the world’s population from the time of Pentecost until the end of the world.
    This is something that I've been contemplating off and on for a long time and absolutely agree, this  is definitely beyond all understanding.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #2 on: July 20, 2023, 12:23:08 PM »
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  • So if the elect are limited to the Feeney adherents, we're talking a couple hundred people at most with any chance at salvation.  So what maybe 300 out of 8 billion?  That's not even a percentage, we're in exponent territory.  Actually 300 cubed is just over 8 billion.  These select few are relying on perfect contrition?  How does a Feeney person get baptized if they convert later in life?  They have to go to a "heretic" priest?  Very bizarre situation indeed.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #3 on: July 20, 2023, 01:15:06 PM »
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  • Fr Wathen did not believe in BOD, but his main argument was against "salvation by invincible ignorance", which is basically Pelagianism.  St Augustine fought the Pelagian heresy in his day, who argued that infants didn't need to be baptized to gain heaven.  St Augustine said, yes, even infants need baptism for salvation.  Who is more innocent (humanly speaking) than an infant?  No one.  Further, St Thomas says that ignorance is a punishment for sin and that the ignorant are personally guilty for this state.  Thus, "salvation by ignorance" is a heresy.

    The issue of BOD is a different matter than "salvation by invincible ignorance".  If one believes in BOD for the catechumen (i.e. +Bellarmine, +Aquinas, +Alphonsus) then this isn't Pelagianism and is arguable.  But when you start applying BOD to those who a) don't even know about the Church, b) don't know about Baptism, and/or c) just want to "please God" then you've entered the realm of Pelagian error.

    "Salvation by invincible ignorance" is a much, much deeper issue than BOD, which idea has been hijacked by Modernists to lead to V2's ecuмenical, new-age, one-world religion.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #4 on: July 20, 2023, 02:24:53 PM »
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  • One of the things that comes to my mind every time the idea of salvation via invincible ignorance come up, is the 9 day Novena to the Holy Ghost, which is oldest of all novenas. On the First day it says that  "Only one thing is important -- eternal salvation. Only one thing, therefore, is to be feared -- sin. Sin is the result of ignorance, weakness, and indifference."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #5 on: July 20, 2023, 02:29:36 PM »
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  • There's that great quote from St. Robert Bellarmine rejecting invincible ignorance, where he states that one cannot desire that which one does not know.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #6 on: July 21, 2023, 06:06:43 AM »
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  • So if the elect are limited to the Feeney adherents, we're talking a couple hundred people at most with any chance at salvation.  So what maybe 300 out of 8 billion?  That's not even a percentage, we're in exponent territory.  Actually 300 cubed is just over 8 billion.  These select few are relying on perfect contrition?  How does a Feeney person get baptized if they convert later in life?  They have to go to a "heretic" priest?  Very bizarre situation indeed. 
    You are making a lot of assumptions here.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #7 on: July 21, 2023, 06:08:56 AM »
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  • Fr Wathen did not believe in BOD, but his main argument was against "salvation by invincible ignorance", which is basically Pelagianism.  St Augustine fought the Pelagian heresy in his day, who argued that infants didn't need to be baptized to gain heaven.  St Augustine said, yes, even infants need baptism for salvation.  Who is more innocent (humanly speaking) than an infant?  No one.  Further, St Thomas says that ignorance is a punishment for sin and that the ignorant are personally guilty for this state.  Thus, "salvation by ignorance" is a heresy.

    The issue of BOD is a different matter than "salvation by invincible ignorance".  If one believes in BOD for the catechumen (i.e. +Bellarmine, +Aquinas, +Alphonsus) then this isn't Pelagianism and is arguable.  But when you start applying BOD to those who a) don't even know about the Church, b) don't know about Baptism, and/or c) just want to "please God" then you've entered the realm of Pelagian error.

    "Salvation by invincible ignorance" is a much, much deeper issue than BOD, which idea has been hijacked by Modernists to lead to V2's ecuмenical, new-age, one-world religion.
    How to get modern traditional priest to realise that invincible ignorance is heresy? It seems they all believe this and "3 baptisms"...


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #8 on: July 21, 2023, 06:33:51 AM »
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  • How to get modern traditional priest to realise that invincible ignorance is heresy? It seems they all believe this and "3 baptisms"...
    Seems to me the only way would be for them to accept the literal meaning of the dogma.

    Even in Scripture (John 16:9) God said in no uncertain terms that those who do not believe in Him are convicted of sin, not rewarded salvation.  Because Christ and the Church are one, all those who do not believe in Him, do not believe in His Church and are therefore outside of the Church = no salvation.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Drolo

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #9 on: July 21, 2023, 07:17:05 AM »
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  • Quote
    The “unsaints” have not been redeemed, their salvation is not due to Christ, their sins are still unremitted, and they receive no grace.  Yet, they are taken to Heaven because there is no other place to put them.
    That's the problem with ignore Limbo.

    It's difficult to accept that God would condemn to eternal torment an unbaptized babies or someone what followed the natural law written in their consciences but they didn't have the chance to know God and the Church, for example virtuous Americans before the arrival of the Europeans. But if we accept that unbaptized babies and virtuous pagans who didn't have the opportunity to know God would be in a place where, although they don't have perfect happiness because they don't have beatific vision, they have a kind of natural happiness, it's different.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #10 on: July 21, 2023, 07:24:11 AM »
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  • How to get modern traditional priest to realise that invincible ignorance is heresy? It seems they all believe this and "3 baptisms"...

    Well, "invincible ignorance" is not heresy.

    It should be easy to explain to any trad priest that invincible ignorance by itself cannot be salvific, but merely exculpatory.  Supernatural faith, charity, etc. are still required for salvation.

    To claim that invincible ignorance BY ITSELF saves is nothing short of Pelagian heresy, the basic notion that people are saved by default unless they do something to get un-saved.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #11 on: July 21, 2023, 07:31:33 AM »
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  • That's the problem with ignore Limbo.

    It's difficult to accept that God would condemn to eternal torment an unbaptized babies or someone what followed the natural law written in their consciences but they didn't have the chance to know God and the Church, for example virtuous Americans before the arrival of the Europeans. But if we accept that unbaptized babies and virtuous pagans who didn't have the opportunity to know God would be in a place where, although they don't have perfect happiness because they don't have beatific vision, they have a kind of natural happiness, it's different.

    This is what people don't understand about salvation.  Salvation, defined as entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, into the Beatific Vision, is not owed to anyone, nor is human nature even capable of it without a special gift from God to elevate human nature above its intrinsic capabilities.  That is why the infants in Limbo do not suffer, since they are not lacking anything that is required for the perfection of their nature.  It's like animals do not suffer for their lack of intellectual capabilities, since they basically have no idea what they're even missing.

    Another problem that leads to EENS denial is a false notion of Hell, this idea of a single monolithic cauldron of fire, where a noble savage who perhaps gave his life to save his family is burning in Hell right next to mass murderers like Joe Stalin.  We see people around us who have natural virtue and goodness, so people have trouble imagining them in the torments of Hell.  One of the EENS definitions states that each individual suffers in Hell to the extent of their sins.  I hold that some who lived lives of natural virtue suffer very little, and I believe that there are those who can approximate or even reach the same state as infants in Limbo.  There are in fact probably some Native Americans existing in some "Happy Hunting Ground".  So the view of Heaven and Hell being just binary states, where you're either happy beyond words or in an extreme cauldron of torment has actually done a lot to inspire the rejection of EENS dogma.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #12 on: July 21, 2023, 07:34:38 AM »
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  • Well, "invincible ignorance" is not heresy.

    It should be easy to explain to any trad priest that invincible ignorance by itself cannot be salvific, but merely exculpatory.  Supernatural faith, charity, etc. are still required for salvation.

    To claim that invincible ignorance BY ITSELF saves is nothing short of Pelagian heresy, the basic notion that people are saved by default unless they do something to get un-saved.
    Things for clearing that up. Though there are those who believe that someone outside the church can be saved in 'invincible ignorance'. And also saved 'by the Church' rather than 'in the Church'....

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #13 on: July 21, 2023, 07:34:53 AM »
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  • So if the elect are limited to the Feeney adherents, we're talking a couple hundred people at most with any chance at salvation.

    What the heck are you babbling about?  This is the same nonsense you spewed on another thread that I debunked numerous times already.  Very few Feeneyites believe that you have to be a Feeneyite in order to be saved.  And, despite my having told you this a half dozen times already, you keep just repeating it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
    « Reply #14 on: July 21, 2023, 07:37:40 AM »
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  • Things for clearing that up. Though there are those who believe that someone outside the church can be saved in 'invincible ignorance'. And also saved 'by the Church' rather than 'in the Church'....

    Yeah, "invincible ignorance" was explained by St. Thomas and also by Pope Pius IX (whose explanation was identical to that of St. Thomas but has been distorted by the enemies of EENS).  Both of them said that no one would be condemned BECAUSE OF invincible ignorance.  This does not mean that they will be saved, just that they will not be punished for their lack of faith.  Faith is a free gift, and simply not having it does not lead to punishment.  What's heresy is to hold that invincible ignorance is salvific, since that's basically Pelagianism.