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Author Topic: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"  (Read 7437 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2023, 02:29:36 PM »
There's that great quote from St. Robert Bellarmine rejecting invincible ignorance, where he states that one cannot desire that which one does not know.
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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2023, 06:06:43 AM »
Quote from: Durango77 on July 20, 2023, 12:23:08 PM
So if the elect are limited to the Feeney adherents, we're talking a couple hundred people at most with any chance at salvation.  So what maybe 300 out of 8 billion?  That's not even a percentage, we're in exponent territory.  Actually 300 cubed is just over 8 billion.  These select few are relying on perfect contrition?  How does a Feeney person get baptized if they convert later in life?  They have to go to a "heretic" priest?  Very bizarre situation indeed. 
You are making a lot of assumptions here.
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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2023, 06:08:56 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 20, 2023, 01:15:06 PM
Fr Wathen did not believe in BOD, but his main argument was against "salvation by invincible ignorance", which is basically Pelagianism.  St Augustine fought the Pelagian heresy in his day, who argued that infants didn't need to be baptized to gain heaven.  St Augustine said, yes, even infants need baptism for salvation.  Who is more innocent (humanly speaking) than an infant?  No one.  Further, St Thomas says that ignorance is a punishment for sin and that the ignorant are personally guilty for this state.  Thus, "salvation by ignorance" is a heresy.

The issue of BOD is a different matter than "salvation by invincible ignorance".  If one believes in BOD for the catechumen (i.e. +Bellarmine, +Aquinas, +Alphonsus) then this isn't Pelagianism and is arguable.  But when you start applying BOD to those who a) don't even know about the Church, b) don't know about Baptism, and/or c) just want to "please God" then you've entered the realm of Pelagian error.

"Salvation by invincible ignorance" is a much, much deeper issue than BOD, which idea has been hijacked by Modernists to lead to V2's ecuмenical, new-age, one-world religion.
How to get modern traditional priest to realise that invincible ignorance is heresy? It seems they all believe this and "3 baptisms"...
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2023, 06:33:51 AM »
Quote from: AnthonyPadua on July 21, 2023, 06:08:56 AM
How to get modern traditional priest to realise that invincible ignorance is heresy? It seems they all believe this and "3 baptisms"...
Seems to me the only way would be for them to accept the literal meaning of the dogma.

Even in Scripture (John 16:9) God said in no uncertain terms that those who do not believe in Him are convicted of sin, not rewarded salvation.  Because Christ and the Church are one, all those who do not believe in Him, do not believe in His Church and are therefore outside of the Church = no salvation.
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Offline Drolo

Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2023, 07:17:05 AM »
Quote
The “unsaints” have not been redeemed, their salvation is not due to Christ, their sins are still unremitted, and they receive no grace.  Yet, they are taken to Heaven because there is no other place to put them.
That's the problem with ignore Limbo.

It's difficult to accept that God would condemn to eternal torment an unbaptized babies or someone what followed the natural law written in their consciences but they didn't have the chance to know God and the Church, for example virtuous Americans before the arrival of the Europeans. But if we accept that unbaptized babies and virtuous pagans who didn't have the opportunity to know God would be in a place where, although they don't have perfect happiness because they don't have beatific vision, they have a kind of natural happiness, it's different.
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