Quote from: MarylandTrad

Quote from: Ladislaus

You're claiming that Pius IX teaches that people who suffer from invincible ignorance of truths necessary for salvation can be saved in that state.  [Pelagianism]

WE are saying that Pius IX teaches that people who suffer from invincible ignorance of these truths are in a position to be saved by the operation of divine light (to enlighten their ignorance) and are "in the way" of salvation.  [Non-Pelagian]

The Pelagian apostles of indifferentism ultimately do not believe that God has the power to enlighten the ignorant natives.

They reject the teaching of St. Leonard of Port Maurice:
http://olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

Quote

Brothers, you must know that the most ancient belief is the Law of God, and that we all bear it written in our hearts; that it can be learned without any teacher, and that it suffices to have the light of reason in order to know all the precepts of that Law. That is why even the barbarians hid when they committed sin, because they knew they were doing wrong; and they are damned for not having observed the natural law written in their heart: for had they observed it, God would have made a miracle rather than let them be damned; He would have sent them someone to teach them and would have given them other aids, of which they made themselves unworthy by not living in conformity with the inspirations of their own conscience, which never failed to warn them of the good they should do and the evil they should avoid.

Orestes Brownson's explanation of the subject is also worth reading:

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Did we reflect on what the Church is, did we consider her rank in the universe, her relation to God, the place she holds so to speak, in his affections, the bare thought of the salvation of a single soul not spiritually begotten of her should make us thrill with horror. It would give the lie to all God's providences, and subvert the whole economy of His grace. We need not start at this. All may have the Church for their mother, if they choose. Christ is in the Church, but He is also out of the Church. In the Church He is operating by His grace to save those who enter; out of her He operates also by His grace, or is ready to operate, in the hearts of all men, to supply the will and ability to come in. Do not imagine that God has only half done His work, that He has merely prepared His Church, fitted her up as a palace, filled her with good things, all things necessary for our salvation, when once we have entered, but that He has left us without the ability to find her out, or, having found her out, without ability to enter. He leaves nothing undone. No man has the natural ability to come into the Church, any more than he has the natural ability to save himself after he has come in. All before and all after is the work of God. We can do nothing of ourselves alone – make not even the first motion without His grace inciting and assisting us. Of no use would have been His Church – it would have been a mere mockery, or a splendid failure – if He had not provided for our entrance as well as for our salvation afterwards.

This quote from Brownson comes from They Fought the Good Fight http://loretopubs.org/they-fought-the-good-fight.html

Amen! Now this leaves one question- is it reasonable or unreasonable to assume every act of enlightenment will be accompanied by baptism? Or maybe God wants to display his sovereignty by saving in a variety of ways? He certainly likes variety. Just look at birds.

Our Lord did say that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. Dogmatic Church Councils have affirmed that Our Lord's words on the subject are to be taken literally. Also, it is only through baptism that a man can become a member of the Church, and there is no salvation outside the Church.

The letters of missionaries record many instances of people who died immediately after baptism, and the missionaries have said that they think that God preserved their life precisely for this purpose. http://eens123.blogspot.com/2009/08/their-life-had-only-been-preserved-by.html

St. Francis Xavier, May, 1546: "Here (Ambon Island of Indonesia) there are altogether seven towns of Christians, all of which I went through and baptized all the newborn infants and the children not yet baptized. A great many of them died soon after their baptism, so that it was clear enough that their life had only been preserved by God until the entrance to eternal life should be opened to them." Coleridge, Henry. The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier. (1872) p. 375

Fr. De Smet, Dec. 9, 1845: "I have often remarked that many of the children seem to await baptism before winging their flight to heaven, for they die almost immediately after receiving the sacrament." Laveille, Eugene. The Life of Father de Smet, S. J. (1915) p. 93 "… over a hundred children and eleven old people were baptized. Many of the latter [the old people], who were carried on buffalo hides, seemed only to await this grace before going to rest in the bosom of God." Laveille, Eugene. The Life of Father de Smet, S. J. (1915) p. 172

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father."

Quote from: BumphreyHogart

We yammer about it, because you Feeneyites keep bringing it up and dishonestly try to say that we say invincible ignorance gives salvation. If you would stop dishonestly yammering in the first place it could be done with.

Look who the dishonest one is:

Quote from: BumphreyHogart

Someone who is in good faith in his errors, does NOT mean that he could be saved BY that system of errors, but in spite of them.

Then you have the superior temerity to accuse Pius IX of supporting your Pelagian heresy. However, YOU who are hoodwinked by the modernist clergy you follow, and I suspect I know who they are based on your quote, don't have the slightest clue what Pius IX is communicating when he uses the words "can...attain" salvation, since you have no clue of what "sufficient grace" means and the issues Pius IX contended with from the Jansenists and Calvinists at that time. Not to mention the more important issue of liberals'/modernists'/heretics' which you have fell in line with.

Apparently you don't even know what "in spite of" means. Go look it up.

Quote from: Prayerful

This concept of 'Baptism of Desire' makes it pointless to be Catholic, in fact the luckiest is some cannibalistic South Seas islander ignorant of the Faith.

Not Thomistic Baptism of Desire ... which applies only to those who intend to become Catholic and have all the other dispositions necessary to be Catholic except for having received the Sacrament itself in actu.

But the pernicious Cushingite BoDers like bosco and bumpkin care NOTHING for the rare individual who might meet these conditions; no, their intent is PRECISELY to have included in the Church the very cannibal you describe.

Thanks, my point was a little bit crudely done, but the sometimes subtle, sometimes crude meaning of BoD for those Cushingite Trads or Modernists who sneer 'Feeneyite' ends up by making the Church as Ark of Salvation something without meaning. That interpretation makes Catholicism pointless, a foolish burden. It ends with Universal Salvation, if its implications are worked through. St Thomas Aquinas did not espouse broad and vague understandings of doctrine. Yes, the commonality of terminology means the prestige of the Saint is used in support of something he would wholly reject.

Quote from: Prayerful

Thanks, my point was a little bit crudely done, but the sometimes subtle, sometimes crude meaning of BoD for those Cushingite Trads or Modernists who sneer 'Feeneyite' ends up by making the Church as Ark of Salvation something without meaning. That interpretation makes Catholicism pointless, a foolish burden. It ends with Universal Salvation, if its implications are worked through.

If I may,
the issue is even worse than Universal Salvation; it is entirely possible that the True Church is actually an impediment to salvation! Consider the dying "invincible ignorant" who is on his death bed. He's lived as a chaste Buddhist monk who "implicitly" desires baptism. If a Catholic missionary were to visit him now, he must reject his life long devil worship (Buddhism), concede that all of his past actions and thoughts have no merit in eternity, and submit to a Church who's head he has never even heard of. Alas for the poor man who was on his way to heaven but now, this stranger's words are too much for him and he's off to hell. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is an impediment to salvation! This is blasphemy!

God bless,
JoeZ

See, that very real response from within the heart of the monk is actually a sign of reprobation, because those who are of the truth hear his voice.

The Cushingites say with Christ, "Other Sheep I have that are not of this fold." And then silence the Catholics who say, "Them also must I gather; and there will be one fold and one shepherd."

Quote from: BumphreyHogart

Apparently you don't even know what "in spite of" means. Go look it up.

Of course I do, who are you trying to be now? Cill Blinton

He was saved in spite of his ignorance. Period! That is what you are saying.

BH loves changing the meaning of words, it's his thing, it's what he does.

Quote from: BumphreyHogart

Quote from: GJC

Quote from: BumphreyHogart

We yammer about it, because you Feeneyites keep bringing it up and dishonestly try to say that we say invincible ignorance gives salvation. If you would stop dishonestly yammering in the first place it could be done with.

Look who the dishonest one is:

Quote from: BumphreyHogart

Someone who is in good faith in his errors, does NOT mean that he could be saved BY that system of errors, but in spite of them.

Then you have the superior temerity to accuse Pius IX of supporting your Pelagian heresy. However, YOU who are hoodwinked by the modernist clergy you follow, and I suspect I know who they are based on your quote, don't have the slightest clue what Pius IX is communicating when he uses the words "can...attain" salvation, since you have no clue of what "sufficient grace" means and the issues Pius IX contended with from the Jansenists and Calvinists at that time. Not to mention the more important issue of liberals'/modernists'/heretics' which you have fell in line with.

Apparently you don't even know what "in spite of" means. Go look it up.

Of course I do, who are you trying to be now? Cill Blinton

He was saved in spite of his ignorance. Period! That is what you are saying.

I said "system of errors" and now you turn it into "ignorance"!!  You cannot even get something as simple as this straight right here, never mind understanding perennial teaching.

If I may,
the issue is even worse than Universal Salvation; it is entirely possible that the True Church is actually an impediment to salvation! Consider the dying "invincible ignorant" who is on his death bed. He's lived as a chaste Buddhist monk who "implicitly" desires baptism. If a Catholic missionary were to visit him now, he must reject his life long devil worship (Buddhism), concede that all of his past actions and thoughts have no merit in eternity, and submit to a Church who's head he has never even heard of. Alas for the poor man who was on his way to heaven but now, this stranger's words are too much for him and he's off to hell. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is an impediment to salvation! This is blasphemy!

God bless,
JoeZ

.
Very well said! Thank you.