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Offline MarylandTrad

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Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2017, 05:38:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    You're claiming that Pius IX teaches that people who suffer from invincible ignorance of truths necessary for salvation can be saved in that state.  [Pelagianism]

    WE are saying that Pius IX teaches that people who suffer from invincible ignorance of these truths are in a position to be saved by the operation of divine light (to enlighten their ignorance) and are "in the way" of salvation.  [Non-Pelagian]


    The Pelagian apostles of indifferentism ultimately do not believe that God has the power to enlighten the ignorant natives.

    They reject the teaching of St. Leonard of Port Maurice:
    http://olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml
    Quote
    Brothers, you must know that the most ancient belief is the Law of God, and that we all bear it written in our hearts; that it can be learned without any teacher, and that it suffices to have the light of reason in order to know all the precepts of that Law. That is why even the barbarians hid when they committed sin, because they knew they were doing wrong; and they are damned for not having observed the natural law written in their heart: for had they observed it, God would have made a miracle rather than let them be damned; He would have sent them someone to teach them and would have given them other aids, of which they made themselves unworthy by not living in conformity with the inspirations of their own conscience, which never failed to warn them of the good they should do and the evil they should avoid.


    Orestes Brownson's explanation of the subject is also worth reading:
    Quote
    Did we reflect on what the Church is, did we consider her rank in the universe, her relation to God, the place she holds so to speak, in his affections, the bare thought of the salvation of a single soul not spiritually begotten of her should make us thrill with horror. It would give the lie to all God's providences, and subvert the whole economy of His grace. We need not start at this. All may have the Church for their mother, if they choose. Christ is in the Church, but He is also out of the Church. In the Church He is operating by His grace to save those who enter; out of her He operates also by His grace, or is ready to operate, in the hearts of all men, to supply the will and ability to come in. Do not imagine that God has only half done His work, that He has merely prepared His Church, fitted her up as a palace, filled her with good things, all things necessary for our salvation, when once we have entered, but that He has left us without the ability to find her out, or, having found her out, without ability to enter. He leaves nothing undone. No man has the natural ability to come into the Church, any more than he has the natural ability to save himself after he has come in. All before and all after is the work of God. We can do nothing of ourselves alone – make not even the first motion without His grace inciting and assisting us. Of no use would have been His Church – it would have been a mere mockery, or a splendid failure – if He had not provided for our entrance as well as for our salvation afterwards.


    This quote from Brownson comes from They Fought the Good Fight http://loretopubs.org/they-fought-the-good-fight.html



    Amen! Now this leaves one question- is it reasonable or unreasonable to assume every act of enlightenment will be accompanied by baptism? Or maybe God wants to display his sovereignty by saving in a variety of ways? He certainly likes variety. Just look at birds.


    Our Lord did say that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. Dogmatic Church Councils have affirmed that Our Lord's words on the subject are to be taken literally. Also, it is only through baptism that a man can become a member of the Church, and there is no salvation outside the Church.

    The letters of missionaries record many instances of people who died immediately after baptism, and the missionaries have said that they think that God preserved their life precisely for this purpose. http://eens123.blogspot.com/2009/08/their-life-had-only-been-preserved-by.html

    St. Francis Xavier, May, 1546: "Here (Ambon Island of Indonesia) there are altogether seven towns of Christians, all of which I went through and baptized all the newborn infants and the children not yet baptized. A great many of them died soon after their baptism, so that it was clear enough that their life had only been preserved by God until the entrance to eternal life should be opened to them." Coleridge, Henry. The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier. (1872) p. 375

    Fr. De Smet, Dec. 9, 1845: "I have often remarked that many of the children seem to await baptism before winging their flight to heaven, for they die almost immediately after receiving the sacrament." Laveille, Eugene. The Life of Father de Smet, S. J. (1915) p. 93 "… over a hundred children and eleven old people were baptized. Many of the latter [the old people], who were carried on buffalo hides, seemed only to await this grace before going to rest in the bosom of God." Laveille, Eugene. The Life of Father de Smet, S. J. (1915) p. 172

    "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father."
    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life

    Offline Gregory I

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #16 on: March 16, 2017, 06:04:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    We yammer about it, because you Feeneyites keep bringing it up and dishonestly try to say that we say invincible ignorance gives salvation. If you would stop dishonestly yammering in the first place it could be done with.


    Look who the dishonest one is:

    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Someone who is in good faith in his errors, does NOT mean that he could be saved BY that system of errors, but in spite of them.


    Then you have the superior temerity to accuse Pius IX of supporting your Pelagian heresy. However, YOU who are hoodwinked by the modernist clergy you follow, and I suspect I know who they are based on your quote, don't have the slightest clue what Pius IX is communicating when he uses the words "can...attain" salvation, since you have no clue of what "sufficient grace" means and the issues Pius IX contended with from the Jansenists and Calvinists at that time. Not to mention the more important issue of liberals'/modernists'/heretics' which you have fell in line with.



    It really is Pelagianism. But it occurs to me, the fact that unbaptized infants are not saved actually speaks volumes. Why can't unbaptized infants be saved? Why can't God infuse faith in them apart from the sacrament along with hope and charity? Because all those things demand a response which the unbaptized infant cannot give, and in point of fact he has not empowered it to give. This means that the infusion of hope and charity must follow faith. Faith leads and charity and hope follow. We know this is true also because Trent says it. To have the virtue of faith is not enough to be justified.

    But the presence of faith is the death of ignorance. Therefore none who are saved are ignorant of at least the fundamental truths of salvation such as Christ and the Trinity. No one is saved inspiteof anything. If they die in ignorance they simply are not saved. They simply are not elect.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #17 on: March 16, 2017, 06:36:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    We yammer about it, because you Feeneyites keep bringing it up and dishonestly try to say that we say invincible ignorance gives salvation. If you would stop dishonestly yammering in the first place it could be done with.


    Look who the dishonest one is:

    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Someone who is in good faith in his errors, does NOT mean that he could be saved BY that system of errors, but in spite of them.


    Then you have the superior temerity to accuse Pius IX of supporting your Pelagian heresy. However, YOU who are hoodwinked by the modernist clergy you follow, and I suspect I know who they are based on your quote, don't have the slightest clue what Pius IX is communicating when he uses the words "can...attain" salvation, since you have no clue of what "sufficient grace" means and the issues Pius IX contended with from the Jansenists and Calvinists at that time. Not to mention the more important issue of liberals'/modernists'/heretics' which you have fell in line with.



    Apparently you don't even know what "in spite of" means. Go look it up.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Gregory I

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #18 on: March 16, 2017, 06:39:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    We yammer about it, because you Feeneyites keep bringing it up and dishonestly try to say that we say invincible ignorance gives salvation. If you would stop dishonestly yammering in the first place it could be done with.


    Look who the dishonest one is:

    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Someone who is in good faith in his errors, does NOT mean that he could be saved BY that system of errors, but in spite of them.


    Then you have the superior temerity to accuse Pius IX of supporting your Pelagian heresy. However, YOU who are hoodwinked by the modernist clergy you follow, and I suspect I know who they are based on your quote, don't have the slightest clue what Pius IX is communicating when he uses the words "can...attain" salvation, since you have no clue of what "sufficient grace" means and the issues Pius IX contended with from the Jansenists and Calvinists at that time. Not to mention the more important issue of liberals'/modernists'/heretics' which you have fell in line with.



    Apparently you don't even know what "in spite of" means. Go look it up.


    So God saves without granting faith? Are those saved in this scheme faith-filled or no?
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Prayerful

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #19 on: March 16, 2017, 07:27:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Prayerful
    This concept of 'Baptism of Desire' makes it pointless to be Catholic, in fact the luckiest is some cannibalistic South Seas islander ignorant of the Faith.


    Not Thomistic Baptism of Desire ... which applies only to those who intend to become Catholic and have all the other dispositions necessary to be Catholic except for having received the Sacrament itself in actu.

    But the pernicious Cushingite BoDers like bosco and bumpkin care NOTHING for the rare individual who might meet these conditions; no, their intent is PRECISELY to have included in the Church the very cannibal you describe.


    Thanks, my point was a little bit crudely done, but the sometimes subtle, sometimes crude meaning of BoD for those Cushingite Trads or Modernists who sneer 'Feeneyite' ends up by making the Church as Ark of Salvation something without meaning. That interpretation makes Catholicism pointless, a foolish burden. It ends with Universal Salvation, if its implications are worked through. St Thomas Aquinas did not espouse broad and vague understandings of doctrine. Yes, the commonality of terminology means the prestige of the Saint is used in support of something he would wholly reject.


    Offline JoeZ

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #20 on: March 16, 2017, 09:26:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Prayerful


    Thanks, my point was a little bit crudely done, but the sometimes subtle, sometimes crude meaning of BoD for those Cushingite Trads or Modernists who sneer 'Feeneyite' ends up by making the Church as Ark of Salvation something without meaning. That interpretation makes Catholicism pointless, a foolish burden. It ends with Universal Salvation, if its implications are worked through.


    If I may,
    the issue is even worse than Universal Salvation; it is entirely possible that the True Church is actually an impediment to salvation! Consider the dying "invincible ignorant" who is on his death bed. He's lived as a chaste Buddhist monk who "implicitly" desires baptism. If a Catholic missionary were to visit him now, he must reject his life long devil worship (Buddhism), concede that all of his past actions and thoughts have no merit in eternity, and submit to a Church who's head he has never even heard of. Alas for the poor man who was on his way to heaven but now, this stranger's words are too much for him and he's off to hell. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is an impediment to salvation! This is blasphemy!

    God bless,
    JoeZ
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline Gregory I

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #21 on: March 16, 2017, 10:14:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: JoeZ
    Quote from: Prayerful


    Thanks, my point was a little bit crudely done, but the sometimes subtle, sometimes crude meaning of BoD for those Cushingite Trads or Modernists who sneer 'Feeneyite' ends up by making the Church as Ark of Salvation something without meaning. That interpretation makes Catholicism pointless, a foolish burden. It ends with Universal Salvation, if its implications are worked through.


    If I may,
    the issue is even worse than Universal Salvation; it is entirely possible that the True Church is actually an impediment to salvation! Consider the dying "invincible ignorant" who is on his death bed. He's lived as a chaste Buddhist monk who "implicitly" desires baptism. If a Catholic missionary were to visit him now, he must reject his life long devil worship (Buddhism), concede that all of his past actions and thoughts have no merit in eternity, and submit to a Church who's head he has never even heard of. Alas for the poor man who was on his way to heaven but now, this stranger's words are too much for him and he's off to hell. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is an impediment to salvation! This is blasphemy!

    God bless,
    JoeZ


    See, that very real response from within the heart of the monk is actually a sign of reprobation, because those who are of the truth hear his voice.

    The Cushingites say with Christ, "Other Sheep I have that are not of this fold." And then silence the Catholics who say, "Them also must I gather; and there will be one fold and one shepherd."
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Online Stubborn

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #22 on: March 17, 2017, 05:25:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: JoeZ
    Quote from: Prayerful


    Thanks, my point was a little bit crudely done, but the sometimes subtle, sometimes crude meaning of BoD for those Cushingite Trads or Modernists who sneer 'Feeneyite' ends up by making the Church as Ark of Salvation something without meaning. That interpretation makes Catholicism pointless, a foolish burden. It ends with Universal Salvation, if its implications are worked through.


    If I may,
    the issue is even worse than Universal Salvation; it is entirely possible that the True Church is actually an impediment to salvation! Consider the dying "invincible ignorant" who is on his death bed. He's lived as a chaste Buddhist monk who "implicitly" desires baptism. If a Catholic missionary were to visit him now, he must reject his life long devil worship (Buddhism), concede that all of his past actions and thoughts have no merit in eternity, and submit to a Church who's head he has never even heard of. Alas for the poor man who was on his way to heaven but now, this stranger's words are too much for him and he's off to hell. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is an impediment to salvation! This is blasphemy!

    God bless,
    JoeZ


    This!  :applause:
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine


    Online Stubborn

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #23 on: March 17, 2017, 05:28:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart


    Apparently you don't even know what "in spite of" means. Go look it up.



    Of course I do, who are you trying to be now? Cill Blinton

    He was saved in spite of his ignorance. Period! That is what you are saying.



    BH loves changing the meaning of words, it's his thing, it's what he does.
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #24 on: March 17, 2017, 05:20:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart


    Apparently you don't even know what "in spite of" means. Go look it up.



    Of course I do, who are you trying to be now? Cill Blinton

    He was saved in spite of his ignorance. Period! That is what you are saying.



    BH loves changing the meaning of words, it's his thing, it's what he does.


    Is that what you really perceived multiple times? You didn't mention it before.  I know why; because you know if you brought it up I would easily show you your failure to perceive correctly. It's what you do.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #25 on: March 17, 2017, 05:25:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    We yammer about it, because you Feeneyites keep bringing it up and dishonestly try to say that we say invincible ignorance gives salvation. If you would stop dishonestly yammering in the first place it could be done with.


    Look who the dishonest one is:

    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Someone who is in good faith in his errors, does NOT mean that he could be saved BY that system of errors, but in spite of them.


    Then you have the superior temerity to accuse Pius IX of supporting your Pelagian heresy. However, YOU who are hoodwinked by the modernist clergy you follow, and I suspect I know who they are based on your quote, don't have the slightest clue what Pius IX is communicating when he uses the words "can...attain" salvation, since you have no clue of what "sufficient grace" means and the issues Pius IX contended with from the Jansenists and Calvinists at that time. Not to mention the more important issue of liberals'/modernists'/heretics' which you have fell in line with.



    Apparently you don't even know what "in spite of" means. Go look it up.



    Of course I do, who are you trying to be now? Cill Blinton

    He was saved in spite of his ignorance. Period! That is what you are saying.



    I said "system of errors" and now you turn it into "ignorance"!!  You cannot even get something as simple as this straight right here, never mind understanding perennial teaching.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline Gregory I

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    Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #26 on: March 17, 2017, 10:28:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: GJC
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    We yammer about it, because you Feeneyites keep bringing it up and dishonestly try to say that we say invincible ignorance gives salvation. If you would stop dishonestly yammering in the first place it could be done with.


    Look who the dishonest one is:

    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Someone who is in good faith in his errors, does NOT mean that he could be saved BY that system of errors, but in spite of them.


    Then you have the superior temerity to accuse Pius IX of supporting your Pelagian heresy. However, YOU who are hoodwinked by the modernist clergy you follow, and I suspect I know who they are based on your quote, don't have the slightest clue what Pius IX is communicating when he uses the words "can...attain" salvation, since you have no clue of what "sufficient grace" means and the issues Pius IX contended with from the Jansenists and Calvinists at that time. Not to mention the more important issue of liberals'/modernists'/heretics' which you have fell in line with.



    Apparently you don't even know what "in spite of" means. Go look it up.



    Of course I do, who are you trying to be now? Cill Blinton

    He was saved in spite of his ignorance. Period! That is what you are saying.



    I said "system of errors" and now you turn it into "ignorance"!!  You cannot even get something as simple as this straight right here, never mind understanding perennial teaching.


    A system of errors in this case is not the product of invincible ignorance? Then it must be negligence and they are condemned for unbelief.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Fr. Wathen - "The Matter of Baptism of Desire"
    « Reply #27 on: September 14, 2018, 10:19:57 PM »
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  • If I may,
    the issue is even worse than Universal Salvation; it is entirely possible that the True Church is actually an impediment to salvation! Consider the dying "invincible ignorant" who is on his death bed. He's lived as a chaste Buddhist monk who "implicitly" desires baptism. If a Catholic missionary were to visit him now, he must reject his life long devil worship (Buddhism), concede that all of his past actions and thoughts have no merit in eternity, and submit to a Church who's head he has never even heard of. Alas for the poor man who was on his way to heaven but now, this stranger's words are too much for him and he's off to hell. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is an impediment to salvation! This is blasphemy!

    God bless,
    JoeZ
    .
    Very well said! Thank you. 
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