Author Topic: Fr. Leonard Feeney - Who is he what did he teach? (Read 28317 times)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #90 on:** October 13, 2010, 02:59:20 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

How is this reconciled:

Quote
Pope Eugene IV, “Cantate Domino,” Council of Florence, ex cathedra: “No one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”[clxxxv]
[/b]

It is my understanding that the Pope was speaking to schismatics.

No, Alexandria I don't know everything, but I know that Bod/Bob are de fide.

trad123 · « **Reply #91 on:** October 13, 2010, 03:27:25 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

Where did you ever get such a notion? Is this like the "anonymous christian"?

Alexandria, this has nothing to do with Karl Rahner's theories.

To get a clear understanding of this it would be best to study these articles:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Membership-in-the-Church-2

The Sacrament of Baptism, when received, makes a person a member of the Church. Baptism of Desire and Blood do not make a person a member of the Church, but a soul who has received the effects of Baptism is in the state of sanctifying grace, therefore properly belonging to the soul of the Church.

Since a person can be saved through Baptism of Desire or Blood it is absolutely evident that actual membership in the Church is not required for salvation, the desire suffices.

trad123 · « **Reply #92 on:** October 13, 2010, 03:32:39 PM »

Simply put, membership in the Church is necessary for salvation, but not absolutely so.

Alexandria · « **Reply #93 on:** October 13, 2010, 03:37:53 PM »

Quote from: trad123

Quote from: Alexandria
Where did you ever get such a notion? Is this like the "anonymous christian"?

Alexandria, this has nothing to do with Karl Rahner's theories.

To get a clear understanding of this it would be best to study these articles:

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Membership-in-the-Church-2

The Sacrament of Baptism, when received, makes a person a member of the Church. Baptism of Desire and Blood do not make a person a member of the Church, but a soul who has received the effects of Baptism is in the state of sanctifying grace, therefore properly belonging to the soul of the Church.

Since a person can be saved through Baptism of Desire or Blood it is absolutely evident that actual membership in the Church is not required for salvation, the desire suffices.

Now I know why the church fell apart so rapidly in the sixties.

Baptism of Desire: I was taught that this occurred ONLY if a person had the intention to become a Catholic and died before attaining his/her desire.

Baptism Blood: Again, the person was on his/her way to becoming a Catholic, and was martyred for the Faith before attaining the realization.

I was taught this before the council.

Alexandria · « **Reply #94 on:** October 13, 2010, 03:40:14 PM »

Who was Pope Boniface VIII talking to in this dogma:

Quote

"We declare, say, define and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of EVERY human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."[/b]

trad123 · « **Reply #95 on:** October 13, 2010, 03:41:28 PM »

Alexandria, a person who wishes to conform their will to the the will of God implicitly desires to become a Catholic, do you understand this?

trad123 · « **Reply #96 on:** October 13, 2010, 03:47:27 PM »

Just like I said to Jude:

Quote from: trad123

since the Sacrament of Baptism is the gate through which we become members of the Church, a desire to become part of the Church of Christ is one and the same desire for Baptism.

Alexandria · « **Reply #97 on:** October 13, 2010, 04:00:22 PM »

Let me see if I understand you.

You are saying that you do not have to be a member of the Mystical Body of Christ (which is, according to Pius XII, the Catholic Church) to be saved. That you can be a member without not only not knowing that you are a member, but also without knowing that you even desire to be a Catholic.

trad123 · « **Reply #98 on:** October 13, 2010, 04:03:27 PM »

I am saying that it absolutely necessary for a person to die within the Church to be saved, and I am also saying that it is possible to be within the Church without being a member.

Alexandria · « **Reply #99 on:** October 13, 2010, 04:06:10 PM »

Quote from: trad123

I am saying that it absolutely necessary for a person to die within the Church to be saved, and I am also saying that it is possible to be within the Church without being a member.

By a desire to be a member without having an awareness that you have the desire?

trad123 · « **Reply #100 on:** October 13, 2010, 05:00:59 PM »

Yes, did you not read my post to Jude?

An implicit desire suffices.

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=12853&min=60#p14

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=12853&min=60#p15

trad123 · « **Reply #101 on:** October 13, 2010, 05:04:01 PM »

And read further in the letter quoted:

Quote

But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith:

Alexandria · « **Reply #102 on:** October 13, 2010, 05:07:52 PM »

Yes, I did read your post. And that to me is the end.

Do you agree with these two statements: "Many people who are totally ignorant of Christ and His Church can be saved because their ignorance excuses them and confers on them baptism of desire."

"A person can have baptism of desire, even if he is ignorant of the baptism of water, even if he refuses to be baptized by water."

Charles · « **Reply #103 on:** October 13, 2010, 05:11:30 PM »

What of the protestant who walks in imitation of Christ but rejects the Doctrine and Dogma of the Church ?

Can they be saved without embracing it ?

trad123 · « **Reply #104 on:** October 13, 2010, 05:16:59 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

Do you agree with these two statements: "Many people who are totally ignorant of Christ and His Church can be saved because their ignorance excuses them and confers on them baptism of desire."

No I don't agree with that, their ignorance is not a means of having Baptism of Desire. Invincible ignorance merely excuses one of any guilt.

Quote from: Alexandria

"A person can have baptism of desire, even if he is ignorant of the baptism of water, even if he refuses to be baptized by water."

I agree with the first point, but the second point is iffy. I don't think there would ever be a case like that. Catechesis is always suppose to precede the receiving of the Sacrament of Baptism.