Quote from: Elizabeth

Quote from: innocenza

Opinions, please, on the following citation, via a friend, on what Bp. McKenna wrote to the Dimond Brothers:

"Fr. Fahey in these words is in fact recognizing Baptism of Desire.  I repeat them, emphasizing  what you ignorantly overlook, with (in parentheses) his implications:  'The Jews, as a nation, are objectively aiming at giving society a direction which is in complete opposition to the order God wants.  It is possible that (subjectively) a member of the Jєωιѕн Nation, who (objectively) rejects Our Lord, may (subjectively) have the supernatural life which God wishes to see in every soul (Sanctifying Grace), and so be good with the goodness God wants, but objectively, the direction he is seeking to give to the world is opposed to God and to that life, and therefore is not (objectively) good.  If a Jew who rejects Our Lord is (subjectively) good in the way God demands (and therefore, by Baptism of Desire, in the State of Grace), it is in spite of the movement in which (objectively) he and his nation are engaged.'  I could not agree more with what Fr. Fahey says . . ."

  :idea:  Impossible to comprehend?

So someone can have baptism of desire who does not have the desire to be baptized???

Without having explicit desire, conc., without having implicit desire, nego :)

In other words the desire to be baptized need not to be explicit as it was clearly taught by Pius XII in Mystici Corporis and in Suprema haec Sacra.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943:   “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.

So??

So, if one has not received water baptism, they are not a member of the Church.  One needs to be a member to be saved.

Feeney was wrong and condemned by the Church. All canonists and theologians accept the posibility of salvation just by desire being member of the Church such in the case of Cathcuмens.

The text of Pius XII you quoted does not support what you say. It simply points out who are members of the Church, it doesn´t speak about those who desire to be member of the Church. They are 2 different things. Here is the text of Pius XII suporting the posibility of salvation for non-members:

103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ" and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home.


This is quite clear I think!

Cristian

 First of all, this passage from Mystici Corporis has been incorrectly translated by many to weaken  the actual words of Pius XII.  The phrase (ab eo statu se eripere studeant, in quo de sempiterna cuiusque propria salute securi esse non possunt) which is correctly translated as “…extricate themselves from that condition in which they cannot be secure about their own eternal salvation,” has been mistranslated as “look to withdrawing from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.”  Bro. Robert Mary, Father Feeney and The Truth About Salvation, p. 153.

This mistranslation gives the clear impression that non-Catholics have an outside chance at gaining salvation where they are.

Agreed. That´s exactly what Fenton says. I directly copied and pasted the passage from the net and I should have paid more attention. My apologies.
 Some have translated the word "securi" into sure when the correct translation is "secure". So what? Pius XII doesn´t say those who are related to the Mystical Body are outside the Church, it says they are not members, and that they cannot be secure about their salvation because they lack many graces and benefices which you can only enjoy by being member of the Catholic Church. So a member of the Catholic Church may have a realitve security (not certainty) about his salvation if he believes who the Church teaches, does what the Church commands and receives the Sacramental graces.

But if a non member cannot be secure about his salvation that means that he still may be saved in that state (non-member). I think the words are clear. Otherwise the Pope would have said that they cannot obtain salvation. He clearly teaches the posibility of salvation for non-members.

Cristian

The passage is anything but clear.   You might be right if that were the only statement we had on the matter, but you have to remember there are three ex cathedra statements that say NO ONE is saved outside the Catholic Church.  

You are assuming the terms "outside the Church" and "non-members" are synonymous... quod probandum est amigo!...

I insist. The text is quite clear.

Possibly Cristian might like to consider that any paperwork claiming to condemn Fr Feeney is a fraud-- just as the paperwork re: Card Rampolla and his alleged membership in OTO.

Like Suprema Haec Sacra? :)

Offhand I am not familiar with the docuмent-- pls provide details.

Ok, here is a link. You have the docuмent and a commentary made by Fenton.

http://www.ekaristi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5182

Cristian

In his book After The Boston Heresy Case, G Potter shows how the docuмents allegedly summoning or condemning Fr Feeney are a fraud.