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Author Topic: Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)  (Read 15031 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2015, 11:07:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Fr. Wathen
    It must be understood that when the censure falls upon an individual "automatically," this is only in the "internal forum." An ipso facto excommunication has no effect upon the status of its recipient vis-a-vis the external forum, until the legitimate authorities of the Church establish and certify the incurrence of the censure. Thus, should a bishop preach heresy, he incurs this censure; but he is not thereby expelled from his bishopric, so that his diocese is without a head. That effect of the law occurs only after the juridical requirements of the Code are fulfilled, and the proper authority ratifies the determinations of the proper ecclesiastical tribunal.

    Due to a want of understanding of these principles, there are those who have declared that, since the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council incurred the censures imposed by Pope Pius II's Bull, Execra bilis, or those which the Code of Canon Law attaches to public heresy, all those cardinals and bishops lost their offices. Therefore, they insist, the elections of Pope John Paul I and Pope John Paul II by these cardinals were invalid. Since these two Popes were also active at the Council, having been expelled from the Church, they could not have been validly elected. Further still, all the Conciliar Bishops, having been excommunicated for their part in the Council, were automatically deprived of their dioceses. And since Pope John Paul II's election was invalid, not only is the throne of St. Peter vacant, but all his appointments have been invalid also. Therefore, neither the Pope, nor any of the Conciliar Bishops, hold their offices legitimately.

    The universal Church is without a head, and all the dioceses throughout the world are without ordinaries. In a layperson, such reasoning would be puerile, but somewhat understandable. Unfortunately, it is promoted by priests. Moreover, acting on such conclusions, certain priests have justified their being consecrated bishops, in order that the Apostolic succession of Orders and jurisdiction not be lost in the Church.

    Contrary to such reasoning, it is within the Conciliar Establishment that one finds the historical and structural continuity of the True Church; even though they are serving Satan, those who hold ecclesiastical offices hold them legitimately.

    Those who say otherwise have not proved that, because these men are apostates from the Faith, they cannot be considered to hold any offices. "One who is no longer a Catholic," they say, "cannot possibly hold an office within the Church, nor exercise legitimate authority." No, even though these individuals have incurred the censures of the Church's law for heresy, apostasy, the desecration of the churches, the violation of the Sacraments, for these and similar crimes, they continue to be the legitimate authorities of the Church. And since they do hold these offices, others who seek to interpose themselves into authority over the Catholic faithful, commit schismatical acts in doing so, and themselves incur the penalties of the Code.


    This passage is key; it backs up what I was saying that Father Wathen was grasping at the distinctions made by sedeprivationism but just failed to explicitly articulate it.

    If he would have said, "Once [materially] a Catholic, always [materially] a Catholic." then we're good to go.

    Yet "Once [formally] a Catholic, always [formally] a Catholic." then that is false.

    So the question becomes, can a purely material Catholic formally exercise jurisdiction in the Church?  That's a very difficult question ... something that's very much oversimplified by the vast majority of SVs.

    Let's take a look at this example.

    Cardinal Cushing is known to have stated publicly, "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.  Nobody's going to tell me that Christ came to die for any select group."

    So Cardinal Cushing was a manifest heretic.

    Did he therefore at that very moment cease to be the Bishop of Boston?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #46 on: January 26, 2015, 12:19:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Cardinal Cushing is known to have stated publicly, "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.  Nobody's going to tell me that Christ came to die for any select group."

    So Cardinal Cushing was a manifest heretic.

    Did he therefore at that very moment cease to be the Bishop of Boston?



    You should start a new thread.


    Just an example (whether you agree with the premise or not that Cushing was a heretic) to flesh out what's involved.  Let's say you accused a bishop prior to Vatican II of heresy.  Would that mean you could suddenly stop obeying him, or would Rome say otherwise until it examined the situation directly?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #47 on: January 26, 2015, 12:24:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Once a Catholic, always a Catholic is false, period - as proven by Pope Leo XIII and Saint Augustine.  The matter has been settled.


    I disagree.  It's not "false, period" but with distinctions ... as I made in my previous post.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    If he would have said, "Once [materially] a Catholic, always [materially] a Catholic." then we're good to go.

    Yet "Once [formally] a Catholic, always [formally] a Catholic." then that is false.


    With this distinction understood, THEN we get to the question of whether one can hold jurisdiction in the Church if one is merely a Catholic materially.  Sedeprivationists extend the distinction and say that one who is materially Catholic can materially (but not formally) hold jurisdiction and office.

    THAT is what Father Wathen was attempting to articulate, that someone who's materially Catholic can formally exercise jurisdiction until materially declared to be without jurisdiction by the Church's judgment.  This is not all that far from the John of St. Thomas position.




    Offline Stubborn

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #48 on: January 26, 2015, 12:36:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus


    This passage is key; it backs up what I was saying that Father Wathen was grasping at the distinctions made by sedeprivationism but just failed to explicitly articulate it.

    If he would have said, "Once [materially] a Catholic, always [materially] a Catholic." then we're good to go.

    Yet "Once [formally] a Catholic, always [formally] a Catholic." then that is false.


    I guess I just took for granted that he was talking about material Catholics. I know of no specific ruling to this effect but regardless of the sacramental character, Catholics, including clergy, hierarchy etc. can and do put themselves outside the Church, so it is common for there to be Catholics outside the Church.


    Quote from: Ladislaus

    So the question becomes, can a purely material Catholic formally exercise jurisdiction in the Church?  That's a very difficult question ... something that's very much oversimplified by the vast majority of SVs.

    Let's take a look at this example.

    Cardinal Cushing is known to have stated publicly, "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.  Nobody's going to tell me that Christ came to die for any select group."

    So Cardinal Cushing was a manifest heretic.

    Did he therefore at that very moment cease to be the Bishop of Boston?



    According to Fr. Wathen - and Fr. Feeney for that matter, no.

    Fr. Feeney petitioned the pope in Rome to do something about it and still ended up being the victim. Had Rome censured +Cushing as should have been done, we perhaps would not be having this discussion, perhaps there would be no Novus Ordo either for that matter.

    I know that through all the injustices Fr. Feeney endured at the hands of his superiors, he never once questioned the legitimacy of the offices of +Cushing or the pope. Seem if anyone in a spot light ever had reason, it would have been him way back then.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #49 on: January 26, 2015, 12:59:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I disagree.  It's not "false, period" but with distinctions ... as I made in my previous post.



    Father Wathen did a lot of great things.  However, I will take the words of Saint Augustine, as quoted by a Pope, over Father Wathen.

    Saint Augustine clearly states that a heretic is not a Catholic, period.  He even says that a heretic cannot even call himself Catholic.  He does not make any distinctions.  Pope Leo XIII was in a perfect position to make distinctions yet he makes no exceptions or distinctions either.


    Are material heretics Catholic?



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #50 on: January 26, 2015, 01:05:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    According to Fr. Wathen - and Fr. Feeney for that matter, no.


    And I suggest that Rome would have backed this position as well.  What would normally happen is that a priest could accuse Cushing of heresy to Rome.  If Rome dismissed the claim, then Cushing would remain Bishop of Boston.  If Rome agreed, then it would call upon Cushing to recant (after having given him the opportunity to defend himself against the charge).  Then, if Cushing recanted or successfully defended himself, he would remain Bishop; if Cushing refused to recant and failed to successfully defend himself, then Rome would declare him deposed or just depose him.  There's a question of authority in discerning the crime that is completely missed by SVs.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #51 on: January 26, 2015, 01:07:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Are material heretics Catholic?



    A Catholic who errs in good faith and would certainly recant their heresy when presented with the truth.  


    Correct.  But you didn't answer my question.

    Are material heretics Catholics?

    You had said that heretics are not Catholics "without distinction".  Consequently, then, according to you, material heretics are not Catholics.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #52 on: January 26, 2015, 01:13:52 PM »
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  • On a separate note, the term material heretic has become deeply abused and distorted in the past couple hundred years due to the same trend towards subjectivism that undermined everything else.  It does NOT mean someone who's "sincere" or "good-willed".  So, for instance, Protestants CANNOT BE MATERIAL HERETICS.  That's one of my pet peeves.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #53 on: January 26, 2015, 01:24:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Saint Augustine CLEARLY states "he (heretic) is not a Catholic." (period)  He does not make any distinctions.


    Well, actually he doesn't.  He actually writes about inculpable error (due to ignorance) where one would not be considered a heretic.  While he doesn't use the scholastic terms for the distinction, it does exist in his writings.

    Nevertheless, you're missing the point.

    Are material heretics Catholics?

    You said yes.  So here's a case of where you can apply a distinction and then state that heretics are Catholics.  But you refuse to admit a similar distinction:

    materially Catholic vs. formally Catholic

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #54 on: January 26, 2015, 01:27:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Correct.  But you didn't answer my question.

    Are material heretics Catholics?



    I did answer your question.  I stated that a material heretic is a CATHOLIC erring in good faith.


    Not directly.  You didn't say in your previous post, "a material heretic is a Catholic"; one had to infer that as being your definition of material heretic.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #55 on: January 26, 2015, 01:30:28 PM »
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  • So Father Wathen, based on Stubborn's additional citation, was trying to say that someone who's only materially a Catholic can continue to formally exercise jurisdiction.  Whereas the sedeprivationists say that someone who's only materially Catholic can continue to only materially exercise jurisdiction.

    I think that some additional distinctions are appropriate as well.


    #1) If Cushing (to pick on him) were going around saying, "I have embraced Islam and don't believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church." (apostasy)

    is different from

    #2) Cushing going around saying, "I know that the Church teaches EENS, but I don't believe it anyway.  I think that the Church got this dogma wrong." (heresy)

    is different from

    #3) Cushing going around saying, "I believe that my opinion, due to the following reasons and distinctions, is compatible with Catholic teaching." (???????)

    In the case of the V2 Popes we have #3 going on.  That becomes MUCH MORE COMPLICATED than #1 and #2 and requires the intervention of Church authority.



    Offline Stubborn

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #56 on: January 26, 2015, 01:42:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Stubborn
    According to Fr. Wathen - and Fr. Feeney for that matter, no.


    And I suggest that Rome would have backed this position as well.  What would normally happen is that a priest could accuse Cushing of heresy to Rome.  If Rome dismissed the claim, then Cushing would remain Bishop of Boston.  If Rome agreed, then it would call upon Cushing to recant (after having given him the opportunity to defend himself against the charge).  Then, if Cushing recanted or successfully defended himself, he would remain Bishop; if Cushing refused to recant and failed to successfully defend himself, then Rome would declare him deposed or just depose him.  There's a question of authority in discerning the crime that is completely missed by SVs.


    100% agree.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #57 on: January 26, 2015, 02:07:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Nevertheless, you're missing the point.

    Are material heretics Catholics?

    You said yes.  So here's a case of where you can apply a distinction and then state that heretics are Catholics.



    No. Material heretics are not considered heretics, as they do not cease to be a member of the Church.  A "material heretic" is a theological term used to describe a Catholic that is confused about a particular dogma of the faith and that they are not denying deliberately.        





    Quote from: Ladislaus
    But you refuse to admit a similar distinction: materially Catholic vs. formally Catholic



    This should be interesting....  What is the distinction between a material Catholic and a Formal Catholic?


    But I've already explained this.  People remain materially Catholics based on their Baptismal Character even if the formally cease to be Catholic due to heresy, schism, apostasy, etc.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #58 on: January 26, 2015, 02:09:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Nevertheless, you're missing the point.

    Are material heretics Catholics?

    You said yes.  So here's a case of where you can apply a distinction and then state that heretics are Catholics.



    No. Material heretics are not considered formal heretics,


    Fixed it for you.  Many sedevacantists struggle with necessary distinctions.  They make everything binary and do not allow for "in some ways yes, in some ways no".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Fr. James Wathen on the Doctrine of Exclusive Savlation (Video)
    « Reply #59 on: January 26, 2015, 02:59:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Many sedevacantists struggle with necessary distinctions.  They make everything binary and do not allow for "in some ways yes, in some ways no".




    "But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil." (Matthew 5:37)




    So you're denouncing the "distinction" now, a tool which formed the backbone of scholastic theology?  This attitude right epitomizes precisely what's wrong with the sedevacantists.