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Author Topic: Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS  (Read 13329 times)

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Offline SJB

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Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2011, 03:18:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: LM
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    Saying that "If the Church didn't specifically condemn something then it's to OK hold or even do" isn't very logical.


    Jehanne wants things to be be condemned that are not condemned (and may never be.) Until they are condemned, he must be at peace with his fellow Catholics.



     The Church has not condemned the Neocatechumenal heresy and may never condemn it for the objective of the new Rome is to keep unity at all costs, even if this "unity" means the destruction of our Creed/Faith.   Think of this when you receive communion, that Rome has turned our act of communion into a farse, for with the approval and full backing of Rome we commune with heresy.  Yea, be "at peace".


    Are you unable to differentiate between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II?



    Apparently its flown over your head that it was the pre-Vat II Church that gave us Vat II.  Vat II didn't just pop up out of nothing.


    Of course it didn't. But you still seem unable to differentiate between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II.


    Don't fool yourself SJB.  Vat II brought together from all corners , " ideologies" that had already/were  invading Catholic thought.   These "ideologies where "packaged" via a "council" to establish/cement them in.  The post-VatII Church is the flourishing of seeds that found ground long, long ago, in the pre-VatII era.  The source of post-VatII IS pre-VatII.


    What you are suggesting is heretical.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline umblehay anmay

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #91 on: March 06, 2011, 04:11:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    What you are suggesting is heretical.


    How so SJB?  Popes such as Pius IX and Pope St. Pius X recognized that modernist heretics were making inroads into the Seminaries and such.   It didn't mean that any of the Pre-Vatican II heresies were actual teachings of the Church because none of the heresies were ever declared infallibly by the Popes.    They were only promoted by heretical theologians and seminary professors.


    Offline LM

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #92 on: March 06, 2011, 04:13:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
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    Quote from: LM
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Caraffa
    Saying that "If the Church didn't specifically condemn something then it's to OK hold or even do" isn't very logical.


    Jehanne wants things to be be condemned that are not condemned (and may never be.) Until they are condemned, he must be at peace with his fellow Catholics.



     The Church has not condemned the Neocatechumenal heresy and may never condemn it for the objective of the new Rome is to keep unity at all costs, even if this "unity" means the destruction of our Creed/Faith.   Think of this when you receive communion, that Rome has turned our act of communion into a farse, for with the approval and full backing of Rome we commune with heresy.  Yea, be "at peace".


    Are you unable to differentiate between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II?



    Apparently its flown over your head that it was the pre-Vat II Church that gave us Vat II.  Vat II didn't just pop up out of nothing.


    Of course it didn't. But you still seem unable to differentiate between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II.


    Don't fool yourself SJB.  Vat II brought together from all corners , " ideologies" that had already/were  invading Catholic thought.   These "ideologies where "packaged" via a "council" to establish/cement them in.  The post-VatII Church is the flourishing of seeds that found ground long, long ago, in the pre-VatII era.  The source of post-VatII IS pre-VatII.


    What you are suggesting is heretical.


    Again, stop fooling yourself.

    Offline SJB

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #93 on: March 06, 2011, 05:53:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: umblehay anmay
    Quote from: SJB
    What you are suggesting is heretical.


    How so SJB?  Popes such as Pius IX and Pope St. Pius X recognized that modernist heretics were making inroads into the Seminaries and such.   It didn't mean that any of the Pre-Vatican II heresies were actual teachings of the Church because none of the heresies were ever declared infallibly by the Popes.    They were only promoted by heretical theologians and seminary professors.


    The power to teach and to rule does not reside directly in the theologians and seminary professors, they are auxiliaries of the Bishops.

    Quote from: Scheeben
    The Teaching Body is a living organism, and consequently has the power of producing auxiliary members to assist in its work, and of conferring upon them the credentials required for their different functions. These auxiliary members may be divided into two classes: (1) auxiliaries of the Bishops, and (2) auxiliaries of the Chief Bishop.

    I. The ordinary auxiliaries of the Episcopate are the priests and deacons. They receive their orders and their jurisdiction from the Bishops, and hold an inferior rank in the Hierarchy. Their position as regards the office of teaching, though far below that of the Bishops, is nevertheless important. They are the official executive organs of the Bishops, their missionaries and heralds for the promulgation of doctrine. They have a special knowledge of doctrine, and they receive, by means of the sacrament of Holy Orders, a share in the teaching office of the Bishops, and in the doctrinal influence of the Holy Ghost. Hence their teaching possesses a peculiar value and dignity, which may, however, vary with their personal qualifications. Moreover the Bishops should, under certain circuмstances, consult them in matters of doctrine, not, indeed, to receive direction from them, but in order to obtain information. When we remember the immense influence exercised by the uniform teaching of the clergy over the unity of Faith, we may fairly say that they participate in the infallibility of the Episcopate both extrinsically and intrinsically: extrinsically, because the universal consent of all the heralds is an external sign that they reproduce the exact message of the Holy Ghost; and intrinsically, inasmuch as by their ordination they obtain a share in the assistance of the Spirit of Truth promised to the Church.

    When and where necessary, the Bishops have the power of erecting Schools or Seminaries for the religious or higher theological education of a portion of their flocks. The professors in these institutions are auxiliaries of the Bishops, and are, if possible, in still closer union with the Teaching Apostolate than the clergy engaged in the ministry.


    What is heretical is the idea this unorthodoxy came from the Church and NOT Her enemies. You have confirmed this heretical idea, humble man.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline LM

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #94 on: March 06, 2011, 07:29:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: umblehay anmay
    Quote from: SJB
    What you are suggesting is heretical.


    How so SJB?  Popes such as Pius IX and Pope St. Pius X recognized that modernist heretics were making inroads into the Seminaries and such.   It didn't mean that any of the Pre-Vatican II heresies were actual teachings of the Church because none of the heresies were ever declared infallibly by the Popes.    They were only promoted by heretical theologians and seminary professors.


    The power to teach and to rule does not reside directly in the theologians and seminary professors, they are auxiliaries of the Bishops.

    Quote from: Scheeben
    The Teaching Body is a living organism, and consequently has the power of producing auxiliary members to assist in its work, and of conferring upon them the credentials required for their different functions. These auxiliary members may be divided into two classes: (1) auxiliaries of the Bishops, and (2) auxiliaries of the Chief Bishop.

    I. The ordinary auxiliaries of the Episcopate are the priests and deacons. They receive their orders and their jurisdiction from the Bishops, and hold an inferior rank in the Hierarchy. Their position as regards the office of teaching, though far below that of the Bishops, is nevertheless important. They are the official executive organs of the Bishops, their missionaries and heralds for the promulgation of doctrine. They have a special knowledge of doctrine, and they receive, by means of the sacrament of Holy Orders, a share in the teaching office of the Bishops, and in the doctrinal influence of the Holy Ghost. Hence their teaching possesses a peculiar value and dignity, which may, however, vary with their personal qualifications. Moreover the Bishops should, under certain circuмstances, consult them in matters of doctrine, not, indeed, to receive direction from them, but in order to obtain information. When we remember the immense influence exercised by the uniform teaching of the clergy over the unity of Faith, we may fairly say that they participate in the infallibility of the Episcopate both extrinsically and intrinsically: extrinsically, because the universal consent of all the heralds is an external sign that they reproduce the exact message of the Holy Ghost; and intrinsically, inasmuch as by their ordination they obtain a share in the assistance of the Spirit of Truth promised to the Church.

    When and where necessary, the Bishops have the power of erecting Schools or Seminaries for the religious or higher theological education of a portion of their flocks. The professors in these institutions are auxiliaries of the Bishops, and are, if possible, in still closer union with the Teaching Apostolate than the clergy engaged in the ministry.


    What is heretical is the idea this unorthodoxy came from the Church and NOT Her enemies. You have confirmed this heretical idea, humble man.



    Let me make it clearer for you SJB.  When we speak/say the Church, we take into account Her human element.  As our history has shown, within the minds of this human element error/unorthodoxy/heresy has been/will be born.  Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian.  Of course this needs for one to  understand that when speaking of error/unorthodoxy/heresy in terms of the Church, we are speaking of the human element in the Church.





    Offline SJB

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #95 on: March 07, 2011, 11:08:42 AM »
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    Let me make it clearer for you SJB.  When we speak/say the Church, we take into account Her human element.  As our history has shown, within the minds of this human element error/unorthodoxy/heresy has been/will be born.  Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian.  Of course this needs for one to  understand that when speaking of error/unorthodoxy/heresy in terms of the Church, we are speaking of the human element in the Church.


    The Church does not teach error. Surely there were ememies within the structure of the Church. Nobody is arguing that was not the case. What you are implying is that the Church was leading the Faithful into error, which is heretical.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline LM

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #96 on: March 07, 2011, 11:31:44 AM »
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    Quote from: LM
    Let me make it clearer for you SJB.  When we speak/say the Church, we take into account Her human element.  As our history has shown, within the minds of this human element error/unorthodoxy/heresy has been/will be born.  Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian.  Of course this needs for one to  understand that when speaking of error/unorthodoxy/heresy in terms of the Church, we are speaking of the human element in the Church.


    The Church does not teach error. Surely there were ememies within the structure of the Church. Nobody is arguing that was not the case. What you are implying is that the Church was leading the Faithful into error, which is heretical.


    That "implication" is born in your head SJB.  So stop picking at straws.

    Offline SJB

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #97 on: March 07, 2011, 11:41:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: LM
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: LM
    Let me make it clearer for you SJB.  When we speak/say the Church, we take into account Her human element.  As our history has shown, within the minds of this human element error/unorthodoxy/heresy has been/will be born.  Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian.  Of course this needs for one to  understand that when speaking of error/unorthodoxy/heresy in terms of the Church, we are speaking of the human element in the Church.


    The Church does not teach error. Surely there were ememies within the structure of the Church. Nobody is arguing that was not the case. What you are implying is that the Church was leading the Faithful into error, which is heretical.


    That "implication" is born in your head SJB.  So stop picking at straws.


    What are you saying then? Otherwise, saying pre-v2 led to v2 is like saying the 19th century led to the 20th. It is meaningless.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline LM

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #98 on: March 07, 2011, 11:52:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: LM
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: LM
    Let me make it clearer for you SJB.  When we speak/say the Church, we take into account Her human element.  As our history has shown, within the minds of this human element error/unorthodoxy/heresy has been/will be born.  Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian.  Of course this needs for one to  understand that when speaking of error/unorthodoxy/heresy in terms of the Church, we are speaking of the human element in the Church.


    The Church does not teach error. Surely there were ememies within the structure of the Church. Nobody is arguing that was not the case. What you are implying is that the Church was leading the Faithful into error, which is heretical.


    That "implication" is born in your head SJB.  So stop picking at straws.


    What are you saying then? Otherwise, saying pre-v2 led to v2 is like saying the 19th century led to the 20th. It is meaningless.


    Blowing smoke SJB.

    Offline SJB

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #99 on: March 07, 2011, 11:56:22 AM »
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  • Nonsense, LM.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline LM

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #100 on: March 07, 2011, 02:05:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB

    Are you unable to differentiate between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II?


    Quote from: LM

    Let me make it clearer for you SJB.  When we speak/say the Church, we take into account Her human element.  As our history has shown, within the minds of this human element error/unorthodoxy/heresy has been/will be born.  Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian.  Of course this needs for one to  understand that when speaking of error/unorthodoxy/heresy in terms of the Church, we are speaking of the human element in the Church.


    Quote from: SJB

    The Church does not teach error. Surely there were ememies within the structure of the Church. Nobody is arguing that was not the case. What you are implying is that the Church was leading the Faithful into error, which is heretical.


    Quote from: LM

    That "implication" is born in your head SJB.  So stop picking at straws.


    Quote from: SJB

    What are you saying then? Otherwise, saying pre-v2 led to v2 is like saying the 19th century led to the 20th. It is meaningless.


    Quote from: LM

    Blowing smoke SJB.



    Quote from: SJB
    Nonsense, LM.


    SJB you can't even keep up with yourself and end up shooting your own foot.  In the context of the Church, if pre-v2 leading to post-v2 is "meaningless" than we wouldn't be on the spot of differentiating between pre-v2 from post-v2.




    Offline Lighthouse

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #101 on: March 07, 2011, 03:06:30 PM »
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    Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian


    It is not valid, and it is heretical.

    Offline LM

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #102 on: March 07, 2011, 03:33:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lighthouse
    Quote from: LM
    Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian


    It is not valid, and it is heretical.


    Turn on the light-switch, Lighthouse.  It would heretical only if one divorces Her from Her human element/attribute,  splitting Her in two, where the words the Church make reference only to Her Divine Eternal Truth.  As I said prior, when speaking of the Church and error/unorthodoxy/heresy it is referencing Her human element/attribute.

    Offline SJB

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #103 on: March 07, 2011, 05:11:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: LM
    Quote from: Lighthouse
    Quote from: LM
    Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian


    It is not valid, and it is heretical.


    Turn on the light-switch, Lighthouse.  It would heretical only if one divorces Her from Her human element/attribute,  splitting Her in two, where the words the Church make reference only to Her Divine Eternal Truth.  As I said prior, when speaking of the Church and error/unorthodoxy/heresy it is referencing Her human element/attribute.


    Please provide the source for this "human element" attribute that appears to allow the Church (as you understand it...two elements) to be in error in Faith and morals.

    Also, if Arians were heretics, they simply were not Catholics. Surely there was plenty of confusion at that time, but even so, a heretic is severed from the Church by definition. Don't you understand that?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline LM

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    Fr. hαɾɾιson corrects The Wanderer for their misinterpretation of EENS
    « Reply #104 on: March 07, 2011, 06:20:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: LM
    Quote from: Lighthouse
    Quote from: LM
    Error(s) born in the mind of Arius engulfed the Church to such an extent that it is valid and not heretical to say that the majority of the Church was Arian


    It is not valid, and it is heretical.


    Turn on the light-switch, Lighthouse.  It would heretical only if one divorces Her from Her human element/attribute,  splitting Her in two, where the words the Church make reference only to Her Divine Eternal Truth.  As I said prior, when speaking of the Church and error/unorthodoxy/heresy it is referencing Her human element/attribute.


    Please provide the source for this "human element" attribute that appears to allow the Church (as you understand it...two elements) to be in error in Faith and morals.

    Also, if Arians were heretics, they simply were not Catholics. Surely there was plenty of confusion at that time, but even so, a heretic is severed from the Church by definition. Don't you understand that?


    You mean you've never heard of the two natures of the Church.  That She is both human (human element) and Divine.  You seem to be making yourself purposely obtuse in this matter.

    As to the Arians,  prior to the Council of Nicea, should those who fought Arianism, instead have been "at peace etc" and waited until the Council condemned Arius and his heresy.

    Quote from: SJB

    Jehanne wants things to be be condemned that are not condemned (and may never be.) Until they are condemned, he must be at peace with his fellow Catholics.