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Author Topic: For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.  (Read 4384 times)

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Offline Gregory I

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For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2012, 01:15:43 AM »
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  • In addition, I wish to present a more substantial treatment of the Trinitarian Unity of Baptism:

    Let's start with the Apostle John, in 1John 5:6-8

    [6] This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. [7] And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. [8] And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

    Pope St. Leo testifies that this verse refers to the Sanctifying Power of the Spirit, the Redemptive Blood of the redeemer, and the Waters of Baptism.

    It is easy to see then, that these three are truly one, and their unity is a unity comparable to the unity of the Trinity, the scripture testifying.

    But in what are they three?

    Let us consider: What is the signification of the humanity of Christ? Why was he incarnate? To be a truly perfect man, so that he could die and truly atone, and that this atonement may be of eternal value, by virtue of it being an act of God. The blood he shed on the Cross has the grace to redeem all men, and therefore, those who share in his death may share in his life.

    What is the Significance of the Spirit? The Spirit Sanctifies and quickens, by virtue of the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ, and gives new life to those who participate in his death. Nevertheless, though Christ himself can sanctify man directly, it is an act properly attributed to the Spirit.

    What is the Significance of the Father? It is he who sent his son into the world so that he may offer himself up for us. Thus, we do not attribute to the Spirit the role of the Generation of Christ, or of giving him his divine mission, we attribute this to the Father alone. However, the Father can be properly said to save those who are saved by the blood of Christ, because it is the Father who draws those who are to be saved. "No one can come to me unless the Father draws them."

    Now, consider baptism. First of all, what is the significance of Water? It signifies our sharing in Christ's death, and our ressurection to newness of life. The Sacramental act of baptism configures one to the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ. The material element of water, apart from the sacrament, itself signifies this cleansing that takes place by virtue of the participation in the death and ressurection of Christ.

    Now it is by the power of the Holy Spirit, that those who are configured to Christ's death and ressurection obtain the newness of life and sanctifying grace. We know this, because the Holy Spirit is himself "The sanctifier."

    Again, the Blood is a clear reference to the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross, which blood is of itself life giving, and is the ransom for the world's sin.

    Now, here is the point:

    By analogy, we can see that the Blood is like the Father: The Sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit is only active in one who participates in the blood. The Spirit proceeds from the Blood. Likewise, the Waters of Baptism, which receive their significance from their participation in and indication of the cleansing power of Christ's death and ressurection, are like the Son, in asmuch as Baptism is Matter united to divine activity, grace.

    However, I put this to you: Can the BLOOD be had, not APART from the water, but through a participation in the same thing the water signifies? YES. Martyrdom for the name of Christ is the decision to be united in the death of Christ by suffering for his sake, and he can truly hope for a glorious ressurection who sheds his blood for Christ. Thus, he is said to be baptized in his own blood. Nevertheless, this is not a SACRAMENTAL reception of divine grace, yet it is the most perfect expression of what the sacrament itself SIGNIFIES: Death with Christ. "He who loses his life for my sake shall find it."

    Again, I ask you: Can the Spirit be had apart from baptism? Yes, for we read that Cornelius was FILLED with the Holy Spirit before he was even baptized, and that the Spirit descended and filled others as well. Now, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Holy Spirit to be given APART from the remission of sins, for he is, as we said, by definition, the sanctifier. Therefore, those who are baptized in the Spirit are those who receive the grace and gifts of the Holy Spirit, before baptism. The reason this is effective, is that CHRIST UNITED HIS BLOOD TO CHARITY, SINCE IT WAS SHED FOR CHARITY. Therefore,he who burns with Charity, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, PARTICIPATES, BY CHARITY, in the blood of Christ, which is to say, he ALSO participates in his death and ressurection, albeit in a non-sacramental way.
    Nevertheless, Charity entails not ONLY a profound love of God and Neighbor, but a TRUE love. He who truly LOVES God wills to keep the commandments, not the least of which is "Be baptized." Therefore, those who truly desire God acknowledge the gravity of Our Lord's words: "Unless a man be born of Water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." A person full of true Charity, acknowledges his obligation to receive baptism and desires to do so and makes every effort to receive the saving waters of baptism.

    Finally, we must understand that when theologians say that the water of baptism can be supplied, they do not thereby mean we are saved apart from what those waters signify: For we have seen that it is absolutely necessary to participate in Christ's death, in order to share in his ressurection, and he commanded this be done through baptism. But we also see that, in circuмstances where water cannot be had, nevertheless, the SIGNIFICATION of the waters of baptism is never wanting: And through that participation in the REALITY of the death of our redeemer, we can hope to be saved. Once again, where the ONE baptism is, there are the Water, blood and Spirit. However, where the spirit is, there is the Blood, and the signification of the waters of baptism. Where the Blood is, there is the Spirit, and again, the signification of the waters of baptism.

    Thanks, I am trying to systematize my thoughts.

    Are there any errors here BOD believers?
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline Raoul76

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #46 on: February 08, 2012, 01:28:42 AM »
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  • You were a Feeneyite a week ago?  Hard to believe, that is about as stirring an essay about this matter as I have ever read.  It rung true for me, not that I'm an expert.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Gregory I

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #47 on: February 08, 2012, 01:38:34 AM »
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  • I fell in with MHFM and Augustinian and got dazzled. I read a bunch of arguments without understanding and took an unbalanced patristic approach that was borderlining on Orthodox theological techniques.

     Thanks Raoul.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #48 on: February 08, 2012, 02:42:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    What is the formula to baptize in Latin?  There was a homeless mother in the street with a baby and I asked her if her child was baptized and she said no.  Then I asked if I could baptize it (Zoe) and she said yes.  I know carry a bottle of holy water with me should the opportunity rise again.


    You can only do that were the infant in proximate danger of death. It is very seriously forbidden to do that otherwise.





    A Priest told me it is okay if you have the parents permission.  But I realize you could be right.  I'll have to look into this.  If anyone can provide any information please let me know.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #49 on: February 08, 2012, 02:57:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    What is the formula to baptize in Latin?  There was a homeless mother in the street with a baby and I asked her if her child was baptized and she said no.  Then I asked if I could baptize it (Zoe) and she said yes.  I know carry a bottle of holy water with me should the opportunity rise again.


    You CANNOT use holy water for baptism! If you do, it is INVALID!
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,


    Offline Gregory I

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #50 on: February 08, 2012, 09:48:28 PM »
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  • Why is that PFT? Is it not True and Natural Water?
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline DecemRationis

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #51 on: February 10, 2012, 07:56:03 PM »
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  • Quote

    In addition, I wish to present a more substantial treatment of the Trinitarian Unity of Baptism:

    Let's start with the Apostle John, in 1John 5:6-8

    [6] This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. [7] And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. [8] And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

    Pope St. Leo testifies that this verse refers to the Sanctifying Power of the Spirit, the Redemptive Blood of the redeemer, and the Waters of Baptism.

    It is easy to see then, that these three are truly one, and their unity is a unity comparable to the unity of the Trinity, the scripture testifying.

    But in what are they three?

    Let us consider: What is the signification of the humanity of Christ? Why was he incarnate? To be a truly perfect man, so that he could die and truly atone, and that this atonement may be of eternal value, by virtue of it being an act of God. The blood he shed on the Cross has the grace to redeem all men, and therefore, those who share in his death may share in his life.

    What is the Significance of the Spirit? The Spirit Sanctifies and quickens, by virtue of the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ, and gives new life to those who participate in his death. Nevertheless, though Christ himself can sanctify man directly, it is an act properly attributed to the Spirit.

    What is the Significance of the Father? It is he who sent his son into the world so that he may offer himself up for us. Thus, we do not attribute to the Spirit the role of the Generation of Christ, or of giving him his divine mission, we attribute this to the Father alone. However, the Father can be properly said to save those who are saved by the blood of Christ, because it is the Father who draws those who are to be saved. "No one can come to me unless the Father draws them."

    Now, consider baptism. First of all, what is the significance of Water? It signifies our sharing in Christ's death, and our ressurection to newness of life. The Sacramental act of baptism configures one to the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ. The material element of water, apart from the sacrament, itself signifies this cleansing that takes place by virtue of the participation in the death and ressurection of Christ.

    Now it is by the power of the Holy Spirit, that those who are configured to Christ's death and ressurection obtain the newness of life and sanctifying grace. We know this, because the Holy Spirit is himself "The sanctifier."

    Again, the Blood is a clear reference to the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross, which blood is of itself life giving, and is the ransom for the world's sin.

    Now, here is the point:

    By analogy, we can see that the Blood is like the Father: The Sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit is only active in one who participates in the blood. The Spirit proceeds from the Blood. Likewise, the Waters of Baptism, which receive their significance from their participation in and indication of the cleansing power of Christ's death and ressurection, are like the Son, in asmuch as Baptism is Matter united to divine activity, grace.

    However, I put this to you: Can the BLOOD be had, not APART from the water, but through a participation in the same thing the water signifies? YES. Martyrdom for the name of Christ is the decision to be united in the death of Christ by suffering for his sake, and he can truly hope for a glorious ressurection who sheds his blood for Christ. Thus, he is said to be baptized in his own blood. Nevertheless, this is not a SACRAMENTAL reception of divine grace, yet it is the most perfect expression of what the sacrament itself SIGNIFIES: Death with Christ. "He who loses his life for my sake shall find it."

    Again, I ask you: Can the Spirit be had apart from baptism? Yes, for we read that Cornelius was FILLED with the Holy Spirit before he was even baptized, and that the Spirit descended and filled others as well. Now, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Holy Spirit to be given APART from the remission of sins, for he is, as we said, by definition, the sanctifier. Therefore, those who are baptized in the Spirit are those who receive the grace and gifts of the Holy Spirit, before baptism. The reason this is effective, is that CHRIST UNITED HIS BLOOD TO CHARITY, SINCE IT WAS SHED FOR CHARITY. Therefore,he who burns with Charity, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, PARTICIPATES, BY CHARITY, in the blood of Christ, which is to say, he ALSO participates in his death and ressurection, albeit in a non-sacramental way.
    Nevertheless, Charity entails not ONLY a profound love of God and Neighbor, but a TRUE love. He who truly LOVES God wills to keep the commandments, not the least of which is "Be baptized." Therefore, those who truly desire God acknowledge the gravity of Our Lord's words: "Unless a man be born of Water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." A person full of true Charity, acknowledges his obligation to receive baptism and desires to do so and makes every effort to receive the saving waters of baptism.

    Finally, we must understand that when theologians say that the water of baptism can be supplied, they do not thereby mean we are saved apart from what those waters signify: For we have seen that it is absolutely necessary to participate in Christ's death, in order to share in his ressurection, and he commanded this be done through baptism. But we also see that, in circuмstances where water cannot be had, nevertheless, the SIGNIFICATION of the waters of baptism is never wanting: And through that participation in the REALITY of the death of our redeemer, we can hope to be saved. Once again, where the ONE baptism is, there are the Water, blood and Spirit. However, where the spirit is, there is the Blood, and the signification of the waters of baptism. Where the Blood is, there is the Spirit, and again, the signification of the waters of baptism.

    Thanks, I am trying to systematize my thoughts.

    Are there any errors here BOD believers?


    Gregory I,

    I agree with Raoul, that was excellent.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Sigismund

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #52 on: February 10, 2012, 09:13:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    What is the formula to baptize in Latin?  There was a homeless mother in the street with a baby and I asked her if her child was baptized and she said no.  Then I asked if I could baptize it (Zoe) and she said yes.  I know carry a bottle of holy water with me should the opportunity rise again.


    You CANNOT use holy water for baptism! If you do, it is INVALID!


    Do you have any evidence for this statement?
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir