Author Topic: For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE. (Read 9903 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #40 on:** February 07, 2012, 06:47:10 AM »

This really says it all. I do not think it is up to us to strain the gnat anymore than what follows:

We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (<Denzinger>, n. 1792).

Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.

Now, in the first place, the Church teaches that in this matter there is question of a most strict command of Jesus Christ. For He explicitly enjoined on His apostles to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever He Himself had commanded (Matt. 28: 19-20).

Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one holds not the least place by which we are commanded to be incorporated by baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth.

Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.

Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.

In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man’s final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (<Denzinger>, nn. 797, 807).

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, <On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ> (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.

Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is-composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.”

Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who “are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire,” and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition “in which they cannot be sure of their salvation” since “they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church” (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution, <Singulari quadam>, in <Denzinger>, n. 1641 ff.; also Pope Pius IX in the encyclical letter, <Quanto conficiamur moerore>, in <Denzinger>, n. 1677).

But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: “For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): “Faith is the beginning of man’s salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children” (<Denzinger>, n. 801).

The import thing is to convert people to the faith and have them baptized if they have not been. That is what is in our hands. The Dimonds seemingly think one has to accept everyone not water baptized must be damned in order to become a Catholic. There be all and end all. The trick of the devil which will put them outside the Church they claim you must be in (their way and according to their terms) in order to be saved.

LordPhan · « **Reply #41 on:** February 07, 2012, 09:29:52 AM »

Oremus, the same people who were at the Council of Trent wrote the Catechism of the Council of Trent, also known as the Catechism of Pope St. Pius V. It teaches specifically BOD.

Here is the Catechism of Trent:

Quote

Chrism Added To Water For Solemn Baptism
But it should be noted that while in case of necessity simple water unmixed with any other ingredient is sufficient for the matter of this Sacrament, yet when Baptism is administered in public with solemn ceremonies the Catholic Church, guided by Apostolic tradition, has uniformly observed the practice of adding holy chrism which, as is clear, more fully signifies the effect of Baptism. The people should also be taught that although it may sometimes be doubtful whether this or that water be genuine, such as the perfection of the Sacrament requires, it can never be a subject of doubt that the only matter from which the Sacrament of Baptism can be formed is natural water.

Quote

Baptism Of Infants Should Not Be Delayed
The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

Baptism Of Adults
With regard to those of adult age who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, namely, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out that a different manner of proceeding should be followed. To them the Christian faith is to be proposed; and they are earnestly to be exhorted, persuaded and invited to embrace it.

They Should Not Delay Their Baptism Unduly
If converted to the Lord God, they are then to be admonished not to defer the Sacrament of Baptism beyond the time prescribed by the Church. For since it is written, delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day, they are to be taught that in their regard perfect conversion consists in regeneration by Baptism. Besides, the longer they defer Baptism, the longer are they deprived of the use and graces of the other Sacraments, by which the Christian religion is practised, since the other Sacraments are accessible through Baptism only.

They are also deprived of the abundant fruits of Baptism, the waters of which not only wash away all the stains and defilements of past sins, but also enrich us with divine grace which enables us to avoid sin for the future and preserve righteousness and innocence, which constitute the sum of a Christian life, as all can easily understand.

Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once
On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.
Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.

Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the Sacrament.

In Case Of Necessity Adults May Be: Baptised At Once
Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptised is well instructed in the mysteries of faith. This we find to have been done by Philip, and by the Prince of the Apostles, when without any delay, the one baptised the eunuch of Queen Candace; the other, Cornelius, as soon as they expressed a wish to embrace the faith.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #42 on:** February 07, 2012, 02:17:00 PM »

What is the formula to baptize in Latin? There was a homeless mother in the street with a baby and I asked her if her child was baptized and she said no. Then I asked if I could baptize it (Zoe) and she said yes. I know carry a bottle of holy water with me should the opportunity rise again.

Lemans · « **Reply #43 on:** February 07, 2012, 08:50:52 PM »

Gregory I:

Long time lurker here. For a month I watched you debate against baptism of desire with such zeal and confidence. Now I see you on the other side arguing against baptism of water with the same zeal and confidence. Meanwhile just a few days ago you were completely on the other side. But now here you are saying you've been enlightened in so short a time. Also just a few months ago weren't you unsure if the papacy was even true and were thinking of becoming Eastern Orthodox? Your going back and forth shows that you have no firmly rooted faith, and are carried away from one doctrine to the other, wherever the wind blows. I see you posting Jansenist websites too. I don't mean mean to be offensive but it's obvious that you have faith problems. If you can be so easily swayed from one belief to the other, then you are seriously lacking in faith and you need to find it fast.

Gregory I · « **Reply #44 on:** February 07, 2012, 10:27:02 PM »

I almost became Orthodox a few years ago not a few months ago.

Actually, I was Pro-BOD when I signed up, then I was disillusioned by a false argument made by Augustinian. I was very anti-BOD.

I prayed and asked God to convict me on the true position.

The next day, this is what I read:

" St. Catherine of Siena (Doctor, A.D. 1380)

“By shedding both blood and water I showed you the holy baptism of water that you receive through the power of my blood. But I was also showing you the baptism of blood, and this in two ways. The first touches those who are baptized in their own blood for me. Though they could not have the other baptism, their own blood has power because of mine. Others are baptized in fire when they lovingly desire baptism but cannot have it. Nor is there any baptism of desire without [my] blood, for blood has been fused with the fire of divine charity, because it was shed for love.” (The Dialogue)

I love St. Catherine. I have never seen this before. I recognized this as GOd convicting me that this was wrong.

I am not afraid to change to what I believe is true. What you need to understand is that this is an issue I have struggled with for a long time. Both sides know how to make good arguments, and sometimes it seems to just get to the point where you want to just flip a coin.

However, I am confident that God will lead me in the way he wants me to go. I understand your concern,and acknowledge my weakness on this issue.

However, like most BOD deniers, my MAIN PROBLEM was a false conception of BOD in the first place. Now that this has been rectified, I see no more reason to research water baptism only-ism.

On the contrary, I went as far as you can go with it, and by God's grace, I was removed from this erroneous position.

I am a convert from Protestantism: Nine years now. It has been a struggle, because I value the objective truth over human opinion, and I am constantly trying to prove the truth to myself. This is just my personality.
Perhaps there is still some of the Protestant independent thinking. Perhaps it is just my personality.

But wherever there is a chance I could be wrong, it is worth investigating.

In fact, if someone poses a challenge to you on a serious issue, and they present compelling evidence, you are morally obligated to either refute them or adhere to their point of view, lest you be willfully ignorant of the truth.

I ask God to grant me stability, but not fossilization.

The best thing you can do is please pray for me, a sinner.

I entrust my entire soul to the blessed Virgin Mary.

As for that Jansenist website, yes it is Jansenist. I however, am not, nor do I believe in the Logical FALLACY of guilt by association. The author of that site posts both Pro Jansenist, and Anti Jansenist Works, Pro-Feeneyite, and Anti-Feeneyite works.

As such, there is a lot of awesome information regarding St. Augustine, the XVI council of Carthage, etc. Especially concerning BOD, there is THE BEST description of it I have ever heard.

I only ask people to read what is orthodox and Catholic, I do not post links to heretical webpages. If you feel the need to try and point out something like that, well then, that's your prerogative.

My problem is not a lack of Faith, it is working out the details when I believe there is legitimate wiggle room.

On BOD, I ran out of wiggle room, because my PRECONCEPTION which allowed me to think a certain way of BOD, was shattered.