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Author Topic: For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.  (Read 5708 times)

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Offline s2srea

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For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2012, 10:33:41 PM »
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  •  :cheers:

    Offline Gregory I

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #16 on: February 05, 2012, 10:40:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Gregory I
    SO you don't believe the teaching of the Church, just scripture?


    No, I believe scripture as interpreted by the Church. I agree with you. I disagree with Oremus who's seeming to imply that one is not able to be saved via BOD; and he sounds just like a protestant quoting scripture without reference to Church interpretation.


    Lol. not YOU!!!! :)

    Oremus.


    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #17 on: February 05, 2012, 10:44:18 PM »
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  • Oremus-

    We will take another angle:

    Does Charity convey grace before baptism? Yes or no?

    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 01:18:36 AM »
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  •  Hugh of St. Victor (A.D. 1141)
     
    “Some either through curiosity or zeal are accustomed to inquire whether anyone after the enjoining and proclaiming of the sacrament of baptism can be saved, unless he actually receives the sacrament of baptism itself. For the reasons seem to be manifest and they have many authorities, (if, however, they are said to have authorities, who do not understand); first, because it is said: “Unless a man be born again of the water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,” (John 3, 5), and again: “He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved,” (Mark 16, 16). There are many such passages which seem, as it were, to affirm that by no means can he be saved who has not had this sacrament, whatever he may have besides this sacrament. If he should have perfect faith, if hope, if he should have charity, even if he should have a contrite and humble heart which God does not despise, true repentance for the past, firm purpose for the future, whatever he may have, he will not be able to be saved, if he does not have this. All this seems so to them on account of what is written: “Unless a man be born again of the water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).
     
    “Yet if someone would ask; what has happened to those who, after shedding blood for Christ, departed this life without the sacrament of water, they dare not say that men of this kind are not saved. And, although one cannot show that this is written in what is mentioned above, yet they dare not say that, because it is not written there, it is to be denied. For he who said: “Unless a man be born again of the water and the Holy Ghost,” did not add: “or by pouring forth his blood instead of water,” and yet this is true, although it is not written here. For if he is saved who received water on account of God, why is he not saved much more who sheds blood on account of God?  For it is more to give blood than to receive water. Moreover, what some say is clearly silly, that those who shed blood are saved because with blood they also shed water in the very water which they shed they receive baptism. For if those who are killed are said to have been baptized on account of the moisture of water which drips from their wounds together with the corruption of blood, then those who are suffocated or drowned or are killed by some other kind of death where blood is not shed have not been baptized in their blood and have died for Christ in vain, because they did not shed the moisture of the water which they had within their body. Who would say this? So, he is baptized in blood who dies for Christ, who, even if he does not shed blood from the wound, gives life which is more precious than blood. For he could shed blood and, if he did not give life, shedding blood would be less than giving life. Therefore, he sheds blood well who lays down his life for Christ, and he has his baptism in the virtue of the sacrament, without which to have received the sacrament itself, as it were, is of no benefit. So where this is the case, to be unable to have the sacrament does no harm.
     
    “Thus, it is true, although it is not said there, that he who dies for Christ is baptized in Christ. Thus, they say, it is true, although it is not said there, and it is true because it is said elsewhere, even if it is not said there. For He who said: “Unless a man be born again of the water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God,” the same also said elsewhere: “He who shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father,” (Cf. Matt.10, 32). And so what is not said there, is nevertheless to be understood although it is not said, since it is said elsewhere. Behold therefore why they say it. They say that what is not said is to be understood where it is not said, because it is said elsewhere. If, therefore, this is to be understood in this place where it is not said, since it is said elsewhere: “He who believeth in me, shall not die forever,” (Cf. John 11, 26). Likewise He who said: “Unless a man be born again of the water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God”, He himself said: “He who believeth in me, shall not die for ever.” therefore, either deny faith or concede salvation. What does it seem to you? Where there is faith, where there is hope, where there is charity, finally, where there is the full and perfect virtue of the sacrament, there is no salvation because the sacrament alone is not and it is not, because it cannot be possessed. “He that believeth,” He said, “and is baptized, shall be saved,” (Mark 16, 16). Therefore behold there is no doubt but that where there is faith and is baptism, there is salvation.
     
    And what follows? “But he that believeth not shall be condemned,” (Cf. Mark 16, 16). Why did He wish to speak thus? Why did He not say: “He that believeth not and is not baptized, shall be condemned,” just as He had said: “He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved?” Why, unless because it is of the will to believe and because he who wishes to believe cannot lack faith. And so in him who does not believe, an evil will is always shown, where there can be no necessity which may be put forth as an excuse. Now to be baptized can be in the will, even when it is not possibility, and on this account justly is good will with the with the devotion of its faith not to be despised, although in a moment of necessity he is prevented from receiving that sacrament of water which is external. Do you wish to know more fully whether or not this reason is proven elsewhere by more manifest authority, although even those authorities which we have mentioned above seem so manifest that there can be no doubt about the truth of them?
     
    “Listen to something more, if by chance this matter about which you should not be in doubt can be shown you more clearly. Blessed Augustine in his book, “On the One Baptism,” speaks as follows: again and again as I consider it, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can fulfill what was lacking to baptism but also faith and conversion of heart, if perhaps assistance could not be rendered for the celebration of the mystery of baptism in straitened circuмstances. You see that he clearly testifies that faith and conversion of heart can suffice for the salvation of good will where it happens that the visible sacrament of water of necessity cannot be had. But lest perhaps you think that he contradicted himself, since afterwards in the Book of Retractions he disapproved of the example of the thief which he had assumed to establish this opinion where he had said that the shedding of blood or faith and change of heart could fulfill the place of baptism, saying:
     
    ““In the fourth book, when I said that suffering could take the place of baptism, I did not furnish a sufficiently fitting example in that of the thief about whom there is some doubt as to whether he was baptized,” you should consider that in this place he only corrected an example which he had offered to prove his opinion; he did not reject his opinion. But if you think that that opinion is to be rejected, because the example is corrected, then what he had said is false, that the shedding of blood can take the place of baptism, since the example itself was furnished to prove that. For he does not say: “When I said that faith could have the place of baptism,” but he says: “When I said that suffering could have the place of baptism,” although he had placed both in the one opinion. If, therefore, regarding what he said, that suffering can have the place of baptism, an example has been furnished, since it is established that it is true without any ambiguity, it is clear that  the example was afterwards corrected by the opinion was not rejected.
     
    You should, therefore, either confess that true faith and confession of the heart can fulfill the place of baptism in the moment of necessity or show how true faith and unfeigned charity can be possessed where there is no salvation. Unless perhaps you wish to say that no one can have true faith and true charity, who is not to have the visible sacrament of water. Yet by what reason or by what authority you prove this I do not know. We meanwhile do not ask whether anyone who is not to receive the sacrament of baptism can have these, since this alone as far as this matter is concerned is certain: if there were anyone who had these even without the visible sacrament of water he could not perish. There are many other things which could have been brought up to prove this, but what we have set forth above in the treatment of the sacraments to prove this point we by no means think needs reconsideration.” (Of the Sacraments, II, 6)

    Offline LordPhan

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 01:58:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: Oremus
    Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Gregory I
    SO you don't believe the teaching of the Church, just scripture?


    No, I believe scripture as interpreted by the Church. I agree with you. I disagree with Oremus who's seeming to imply that one is not able to be saved via BOD; and he sounds just like a protestant quoting scripture without reference to Church interpretation.


    Wow, I actually did sound like a Protestant. Unintended.  :facepalm:

    Ok, how about the Council of Trent?

    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.


    This Canon is in relation to those who were suggesting that one could baptise someone with beer or oil. It was to condemn them.

    If performing the sacrament one must use clear and natural water. That is what this means. In no way does it deny BoD or BoB. In fact this Canon is almost a direct quote from the Summa Theologica of Saint Thomas Aquinas, wherein it also states that not only are there 3 Baptisms of Water, of Blood and of the Holy Ghost(Desire) it also states that Baptism of Blood is the greatest of the 3.

    At the Council of Trent they had the Summa Theologica beside the Vulgate. It was THE reference for them. Not too surprising since Summa Theologica literally would be translated as "Everything about Theology" by St. Thomas Aquinas.



    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #20 on: February 06, 2012, 02:09:01 AM »
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  • Yes, it condemns two scenarios:

    What LP said about baptism with invalid matter.

    It also condemns those who say they can receive justification without water baptism. I.E. Protestant heretics.

    Anyone who believes that, and denies their obligation to be baptized, cannot have BOD, for they mock the sacrament and the precept of our Lord that none are saved without it.

    If anyone is to be saved either through Baptism itself or Baptism of desire, they must acknowledge their obligation to receive it.

    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #21 on: February 06, 2012, 02:15:42 AM »
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  • I forgot this:

     1917 Code of Canon Law
     
    The concept of baptism of desire has been incorporated into canon law.
     
    “Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.” (Canon 737)

    Offline Nishant

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #22 on: February 06, 2012, 02:45:52 AM »
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  • Since St.John is quoted, it is well to remember that both the beloved disciple and Christ Himself confirm the Catholic doctrine of perfect contrition.

    Quote
    1 Jn 4:7,16 Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God ... and he that abideth in charity, abideth in God, and God in him.

    Jn 14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and will make Our abode with him.


    These words show that justifying grace is conferred on account of pure love of God, which is the first and greatest commandment. This is why even St.Paul ranks charity (1 Cor 13:13) as the most excellent among the virtues.

    It appears to me that most of those who agree with Fr.Feeney do so out of some concern, understandable but in my opinion, misguided, that if we accept BOD than we won't proclaim the necessity of the sacrament to the unbaptized. But nothing could be further from the truth, as the lives of the Saints who accepted the doctrine show.

    Also, it can be disproved by analogy with the other sacraments and their corresponding extraordinary means. No Catholic who makes frequent acts of love for God will ever, ever, find himself disparaging the sacrament of penance as a result when it becomes possible for him to reach a priest. Likewise, those who communicate spiritually will never find scorn the Holy Eucharist when they are able to receive it. Similarly, only if approach to baptism is morally or physically impossible, will the desire to receive it suffice. Otherwise, that same desire will manifest itself in actual approach to the sacrament.

    I believe, on the authority of both St.Augustine and St.Thomas, by the way, that the like incident happened to Cornelius. He received the Holy Ghost before baptism, as the text says, and as the Doctors comment on the passage, but was impelled to receive the sacrament nonetheless since this was possible to him.


    Offline Oremus

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    « Reply #23 on: February 06, 2012, 09:13:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    :cheers:


     :cheers:

    Offline Oremus

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    For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE.
    « Reply #24 on: February 06, 2012, 09:16:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    Quote from: Oremus
    Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Gregory I
    SO you don't believe the teaching of the Church, just scripture?


    No, I believe scripture as interpreted by the Church. I agree with you. I disagree with Oremus who's seeming to imply that one is not able to be saved via BOD; and he sounds just like a protestant quoting scripture without reference to Church interpretation.


    Wow, I actually did sound like a Protestant. Unintended.  :facepalm:

    Ok, how about the Council of Trent?

    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.


    This Canon is in relation to those who were suggesting that one could baptise someone with beer or oil. It was to condemn them.

    If performing the sacrament one must use clear and natural water. That is what this means. In no way does it deny BoD or BoB. In fact this Canon is almost a direct quote from the Summa Theologica of Saint Thomas Aquinas, wherein it also states that not only are there 3 Baptisms of Water, of Blood and of the Holy Ghost(Desire) it also states that Baptism of Blood is the greatest of the 3.

    At the Council of Trent they had the Summa Theologica beside the Vulgate. It was THE reference for them. Not too surprising since Summa Theologica literally would be translated as "Everything about Theology" by St. Thomas Aquinas.



    I could understand that argument if the canon stopped at "that tue and natural is not of necessity for baptism," but it continues: "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema."

    Offline Oremus

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    « Reply #25 on: February 06, 2012, 09:19:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    I forgot this:

     1917 Code of Canon Law
     
    The concept of baptism of desire has been incorporated into canon law.
     
    “Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.” (Canon 737)


    Help me with this one because it appears to confirm the necessity of water.

    "is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water..."


    Offline Oremus

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    « Reply #26 on: February 06, 2012, 09:36:51 AM »
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  • And please let me clarify my stance: I am not trying to be stubborn. I do recognize that BOD may be possible.

    But the arguments I've read are vague and sometimes seem to be a stretch of interpretations. If I were to see a clear teaching from a Pope or dogmatic council in favor of BOD, I would certainly adhere. I just don't believe I've seen that yet.

    Interestingly enough, I found a quote from then Cardinal Ratzinger where he says "Feeneyites" should not be considered heretics:

    "With regards to those who hold strictly the absolute necessity of water baptism, it would be quite wrong to charge them with heretical constructs. As they merely assert that which was the near-universal consensus of the Patristic era, such a charge would be proximate to condemning all but a few of the Fathers as heterodox. (Der Glaube das Pimmelkopfgelauben, Communio April 1997 p 13. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.)"

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #27 on: February 06, 2012, 12:13:05 PM »
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  • That's because Modernists are a sewer-drain of all errors.  If you are going to him for the truth, you are in bad shape!

    The Feeneyites only need to understand one thing:  Saying "You must be baptized with water" DOES NOT mean that there is no baptism of desire.  If I said "You must confess your sins" it doesn't mean there isn't perfect contrition.  If I say "Don't work on Sunday" that doesn't mean you can't do it if you have to feed your family and there is no other option.  

    What is it about letter vs. spirit of the law that isn't sinking in?  

    What do you expect the Church to say, "All Catholics must be baptized with water, except those who die as catechumens who have desire and those who are martyred who have baptism of blood."  No.  Read between the lines.  It is speaking generally, all must be baptized.  Theologians then interpret the general statements of the Church, and they interpreted them in favor of baptism of desire.

    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #28 on: February 06, 2012, 12:18:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Theologians then interpret the general statements of the Church, and they interpreted them in favor of baptism of desire.


    The problem is when every doofus with an Internet connection starts to fancy himself a theologian :)
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    Offline Oremus

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    « Reply #29 on: February 06, 2012, 01:18:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76

    What do you expect the Church to say, "All Catholics must be baptized with water, except those who die as catechumens who have desire and those who are martyred who have baptism of blood."  No.  Read between the lines.  It is speaking generally, all must be baptized.  Theologians then interpret the general statements of the Church, and they interpreted them in favor of baptism of desire.



    Actually that would be great. Whats wrong with doing that?

    It's not my duty to read between the lines, nor am I equipped to do so. If the Church wants me to believe in BOD, why hasn't It been dogmatically defined?