Author Topic: For those who believe in WATER BAPTISM ALONE. (Read 7912 times)

Gregory I · « **on:** February 05, 2012, 05:12:54 PM »

So, here I go again to make a fool of myself:

Recently I have retracted by position that sacramental WATER baptism alone can lead a person to eternal life.

I condemn this notion. This is NOT the ONLY thing that the fathers give unanimous consent to. My mistakes were subtle, but they were still mistakes:

1. Assuming BOD and BOB are separate from from BOW. They are ONE.

2. Assuming that charity ALONE cannot remit sins. This is FALSE and CONDEMNED by the church! In fact, it strikes at the heart of DENYING BOD.

3. Assumig the church has not pronounced on BOD. FALSE! It has affirmed the concept magisterially.

4. I did not know this, but Fr. Feeney's exact conception of justification through desire was CONDEMNED 400 years before him!

5. It is true that the unanimous consent of the fathers gives witness to the obligation all have to receive the sacrament of baptism. But the OTHER unanimous opinion they hold is that of the possibility of salvation apart from WATER baptism.

You cannot trust the Dimond Brothers to do your thinking for you.

It is true, none are saved without water baptism. But water baptism is also united to the sanctifying BLOOD of Christ and the Power of the Holy Spirit. Since Christ shed his blood in CHARITY, Charity and his blood have been divinely fused together and made one. Therefore, one who is saved through CHARITY ALONE, that is, one who is on fire with the love of God and earnestly desires that most necessary sacrament of baptism, should he die without the Waters of baptism, will, nevertheless, by his CHARITY attain to the reality of that very sacrament: Justification.

So we see that there is no salvation without baptism, but there are several ways of being incorporated into the REALITY of the sacrament.

curiouscatholic23 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2012, 06:44:24 PM »

Council of Chalcedon, 451 AD, Dogmatic Letter to Flavian:

Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ's blood; and let him not skip over the same apostle's words, knowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot. Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sin; and again, This is the victory which conquers the world, our faith. Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God ? It is he, Jesus Christ who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony--Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. In other words, the Spirit of sanctification and the blood of redemption and the water of baptism. These three are one and remain indivisible. None of them is separable from its link with the others. The reason is that it is by this faith that the catholic church lives and grows, by believing that neither the humanity is without true divinity nor the divinity without true humanity.

Gregory I · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2012, 07:45:11 PM »

And it is BECAUSE Of this inseparability of each with the other, that BOD is to be conceived at all.

The problem Curious Catholic is your DENIAL of this fact:

Charity can remit sin.

Your conception of Baptism is not quite right. Baptism is ONE and the three constituent elements of baptism, the Water, blood and Spirit are ONE in their unity with each other.

This unity is a TRINITARIAN unity.

For example, The Blood of Christ is Like the Father. The Water of Baptism is like the Son (Grace united to matter/ Christ incarnate), and the Sanctifying action is like the Spirit, proceeding from the blood (Father) and Water (Son).

Yet, The Spirit can be Principally active in an activity, not APART from Christ, but he is implicitly present where the activity of the spirit is present.

Similarly, it is BECAUSE of the Baptismal Unity that when the Spirit operates in the hearts of individual who sincerely desire baptism, who RECOGNIZE THEIR OBLIGATION TO RECEIVE IT and who desire to receive it, they can be justified.

Notice, this is not APART from the Sacrament, but BECAUSE of it.

THe REALITY of the Sacrament is what it effects.

For you to assert that ONLY baptism of WATER can obtain remission of sins and justification, you HAVE to deny that Charity, before baptism can remit sins.

Therefore, let me ask YOU:

Before Baptism, can CHARITY remit sins? P.S. THe Dimond Brothers do not adress this in their book.

They take the other condemnations of Baius out of Context with the other condemnations and do not properly address the issue.

NOW:

Does Charity, before baptism, remit sins?

http://www.romancatholicism.org/bod-thesis.htm

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2012, 08:36:52 PM »

BOD was taught by many Saints, and also by the Catechism of the Council of Trent. So it seems that history is in favor of BOD.

Matthew · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2012, 08:41:25 PM »

Thank you, Gregory I, for your insightful post about Baptism. It really helps us to combat the errors of the Feeneyites.