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Poll

Does the story of Cornelius prove Baptism of Desire?

Yes
2 (28.6%)
No
5 (71.4%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: Was Cornelius saved by Baptism of Desire?  (Read 1383 times)

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Re: Was Cornelius saved by Baptism of Desire?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2021, 11:00:49 AM »
Not at all. Even BAPTISM ITSELF does not confer salvation, otherwise all the baptized are saved. Baptism only confers Justification, just like Baptism of Desire. Baptism, or its Desire, confers justification. That is the Catholic Doctrine I'm defending.

And here I have to question whether, in your own words, you are "a true Feeneyite". Why? Because no true Feeneyite has any objection e.g. to the Catechisms that teach BOD. They teach that Baptism of Desire can secure the remission of sins. And the Feeneyite agrees. The Dimondite doesn't agree, and thus has to attack the Catechisms. The Feeneyite does not. 

I've said I'm open to Fr. Feeney's position, as articulated by SBC. (1) BOD certainly exists and justifies. (2) Those who die in justifying grace are certainly - and dogmatically - saved. (3) It is permitted to hold all who receive BOD will also receive Water Baptism.

I've only used the Cornelius incident as proof of (1). As proof of (2), in case someone denies it, I would use the passage in the Council of Trent cited by Fr. Laisney. But SBC does not deny it. As for (3) I'd still like to see the pre-Vatican II manual, but I'm ok with it.

As Clemens Maria posted in another thread, the Church does now say that Feeneyism as held by SBC is an acceptable Catholic position. I am yet to see a pre-Vatican II, post Trent source for it, though. But I'm not objecting to that.

The Cornelius incident, again, certainly proves Baptism of Desire exists and justifies. If you want to debate whether it saves, that would require a more detailed discussion. Salvation=Justification+Perseverance in Grace only. 

We'd have to go into Trent and other things. I'm fine with the assertion that Cornelius does not disprove Feeneyism proper. I don't claim it does. But the case of Cornelius, plus the Council of Trent, poses some problems for it.

I've seen some Feeneyites deny that a person dying in Grace will be saved. That's completely wrong imo. But I have no problem with Br. Andre's formulation of it, who says he submits as to a dogma that someone who now dies in grace will be saved.

God Bless.

Re: Was Cornelius saved by Baptism of Desire?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2021, 11:07:29 AM »
Watch this video.  It is only 1 hour long.  It is a tour de force.  It proves from Sacred Scripture, the popes and the fathers of the Church that not only was Cornelius not justified before the reception of the Sacrament of Baptism but that it is impossible to be justified before the reception of the Sacrament.



Re: Was Cornelius saved by Baptism of Desire?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2021, 06:52:28 PM »
I vote no, but hold that it is likely that Cornelius the Centurion was justified before baptism. Even though I am not a Feeneyite, defenders of BOD should not use him as an example. It is usually said that St. Cornelius is Roman or Italian and therefore it is assumed that he was a pagan. He was not, he and his household were God-fearers. God-fearers were Gentile followers of Judaism, a kind of quasi-convert, but who stopped short of becoming full converts because of things like circuмcision. He therefore already believed and worshipped the true God.