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Author Topic: For Last Trad: Did Cornelius receive the Holy Spirit through Baptism of Desire?"  (Read 2589 times)

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This question is to Last Trad: Last Trad said he did not believe in Baptism of Desire, even of the catechumen. He believes therefore that BOD neither exists nor justifies. I'm asking him, in this thread, how he reconciles his opinion, with Catholic commentaries on Sacred Scripture. Do any support his opinion?

I take just one post-Resurrection example, that of Cornelius the centurion in Acts 10. There are other examples that BOD at least justifies, but this will do. Some will say BOD justified before the Resurrection of Christ, but not after, but there is no Scriptural basis for saying that, and this counter-example disproves it. If Cornelius received justification by Baptism of Desire, BOD exists and the Dimonds who deny BOD are wrong on Trent.

1. St. Augustine: "I do not hesitate to place the Catholic catechumen, who is burning with the love of God, before the baptized heretic... The centurion Cornelius, before Baptism, was better than Simon [Magus], who had been baptized. For Cornelius, even before Baptism, was filled with the Holy Ghost, while Simon, after Baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit" (De Bapt. C. Donat., IV 21). http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Baptism_of_Desire.html

2. St. Thomas: "So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism." https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4069.htm

3. Peter Lombard: "But that there is invisible sanctification in some without the visible sacrament, Augustine clearly teaches, saying in his commentary on Leviticus, "Invisible sanctification exists and benefits some without visible sacraments; but visible sanctification, which comes from the visible sacraments, can be present, but cannot benefit without the invisible. However the visible sacrament is not for that reason to be despised, because the one who despises it, cannot be invisibly sanctified. Hence Cornelius and those with him were baptized, although already sanctified by the holy Spirit. Nor is the visible sanctification to be judged superfluous, because the invisible preceded it. Therefore the invisible sanctification without the visible can exist and benefit; but the visible which is caused by the sacrament only, is not able to benefit without the invisible, since therein is its whole utility" https://ia802308.us.archive.org/10/items/SourcesOfBaptismOfBloodBaptismOfDesire/BobBodfinal_usTrade6x9-Anonymous.pdf

4. Fr. Haydock: "Such may be the grace of God occasionally towards men, and such their great charity and contrition, that they may have remission, justification, and sanctification, before the external sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and penance be received; as we see in this example: where, at Peter's preaching, they all received the Holy Ghost before any sacrament." https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment105.shtml

5: Archbishop Kenrich: "The primacy of the spirit is nowhere more plainly expressed than when Cornelius, a Roman centurion, is received into the Church. Note the sequence of events:

"While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. And the faithful of the circuмcision, who came with Peter, were astonished, for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.... And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Act. 10:44-48).

Archbishop Francis Patrick Kenrick (1796-1863), points out in this regard that: " Cornelius and his family received the Holy Ghost whilst Peter was yet speaking to them, before they were baptized. (Acts 10, 44) Others may receive grace in like manner, and be justified before the actual reception of the sacrament, the grace whereof they may receive by anticipation, God accepting the desire of their heart, and subsequently in its reception conferring more abundant grace. This may particularly happen in regard to such as are snatched out of life before they can receive the sacrament. The believer, whilst preparing for its reception, may suddenly feel the approach of death, when no minister of God or other person is at hand to make the sacred ablution. Relatives, under the influence of strong prejudices, may refuse to the dying man the opportunity of receiving the sanctifying rite. In such circuмstances his faith, desire, and love will no doubt obtain for him from the divine goodness the grace which he earnestly implores. This sentiment is not at all inconsistent with the belief of the necessity of Baptism for all who have it in their power to receive it, and of its efficacy, whereby grace is imparted to the worthy receiver." (The Catholic Doctrine on Justification, Archbishop Francis Patrick Kenrick, page 133-134) See: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm

6: Rev. Joseph Pohle: "The anonymous author of the treatise De Rebaptismate, which was composed about 256 against the practice championed by St. Cyprian (Gennad, De Vir. Illustr., c. 27), calls attention to the fact that the centurion Cornelius and his family were justified without the Sacrament (Acts 10:44), and adds: "No doubt men can be baptized without water, in the Holy Ghost, as you observe that these were baptized, before they were baptized with water, . . . since they received the grace of the New Covenant before the bath, which they reached later” (Migne, P. L., III. 1889)"

7. Council of Orange: "According to the Catholic Faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness." https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/orange.txt

There are many others, but this will do for now. If I recall correctly, St. Alphonsus and St. Robert also teach the same. I will look it up later on.

Please explain, Last Trad, if you disagree with these sources, why you do so, and cite some Catholic commentary interpreting Acts 10 as you do.

Others please do not respond to this thread. Or at least wait until he has answered before you do. You can ask me questions on another thread.

God Bless.

What is your problem young man? Why do you spam another thread instead of answering my simple question? Do you actually think I am going to answer your spaming? I asked you a simple question.


Yes, I know you won't answer others' questions, but you want your own questions answered. A discussion doesn't work that way: if you want others to answer your questions, you must do the same when they ask you questions. I already answered your questions n times. You haven't answered mine. Presumably because you can't, or you don't want to, for some reason. 

Yes, I know you won't answer others' questions, but you want your own questions answered. A discussion doesn't work that way: if you want others to answer your questions, you must do the same when they ask you questions. I already answered your questions n times. You haven't answered mine. Presumably because you can't, or you don't want to, for some reason.
My question is simple and you continue to avoid answering them. Now you spam another thread.

Offline trad123

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Saint Augustine Against Julian

https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur013910mbp/page/n281

The Fathers of The Church, A New Translation, Volume 35

Introduction, page XI:


Quote
St. Augustine wrote this work in the closing years of a life busied with three great controversies--Manichaeism, Donatism, Pelagianism, the last ending with the Contra Julianum and the Opus imperfectum contra Julianum.


Page 258:


Quote
Chapter 4
 
(. . .)
 
Of the number of the elect and predestined, even those who have led the very worst kind of life are led to repentance through the goodness of God, through whose patience they were not taken from this life in the commission of crimes; in order to show them and their co-heirs the depth of evil from which the grace of God delivers man. Not one of. them perishes, regardless of his age at death; never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the mєdιαtor. Because of these men, our Lord says: 'This is the will of him who sent me, the Father, that I should lose nothing of what he has given me.'11 The other mortals, not of this number, who are of the same mass as these, but have been made vessels of wrath, are born for their advantage. God creates none of them rashly or fortuitously, and He also knows what good may be made from them, since He works good in the very gift of human nature in them, and through them He adorns the order of the present world. He leads none of them to the wholesome and spiritual repentance by which a man in Christ is reconciled to God, whether His patience in their regard be more generous or not unequal. Therefore, though all men, of the same mass of perdition and condemnation, unrepentant according to the hardness of their heart, treasure up wrath to themselves on the day of wrath when each will be repaid according to his works, God through His merciful goodness leads some of them to repentance, and according to his judgment does not lead others. Our Lord says He has the power to lead and draw men: 'No men can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him.'12
 
(. . .)
 
11 John 6.59.
12 John 6.44.