Author Topic: Feenyite priests (Read 11530 times)

SJB · « **Reply #90 on:** August 13, 2013, 05:52:30 PM »

Quote from: Director

How about because Baptism is a Sacrament. I can t believe you asked that ?

Well, Director, nobody has ever said BOD was a Sacrament, so why would it be specifically addressed under the Sacrament?

Binechi · « **Reply #91 on:** August 13, 2013, 05:52:50 PM »

The question of the subject of something called Baptism of Desire is really a very simple one.

Note...... Theologians , Doctors , Saints upon themselves, have no authority to make Doctrine.. Being fallable humans, can ,and have made errors in their writings in the past. They can teach, preach or write on defined dogmatic Dogmas ,or Doctrine, and can be held accountable for their errors. ,

Pope Pius XII, Humani generis (# 21), Aug. 12, 1950:

“This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.’”

That being the case, if the “Fat” was eliminated out of the equation , (Saints, Doctors, theologians), what we have left is what the Church teaches.

The question then becomes……. “Teaches on .. What “?
The subject is “Baptism”.

We now go to all the Dogmatic Divinely revealed Church teachings on “Baptism”. No Better place to look ,,Then in The infallible Council of Trent, or Vatican I

Walla , what do we find.. No mention of the words , “Baptism of Desire”, noda , none, nothing, to be found anywhere.

Surely the Holy Ghost and the great minds of the Popes would not have missed such an important item as that ,two times no less, especially when it deals with the saving of Souls ?

So you see dear folks, when you take out the “He said this”, “she said that”, “This Saint said this”, that Doctor said that”, we bring it down to the lowest common denominator.

Its not what we think the Church says , It is what the Church teaches, and has Defined, Thru its valid vicars that we must believe, and adhere to for our salvation.

(There were over 500 names of Saints Doctors, and writers who the Church considers ,”Fathers of the Church”.
Those who wrote or spoke on something called Baptism of Desire were (2), on Baptism of Blood (approx. 8). A far cry from the “Unanimous”, or (500), required. (read below about unanimous)

.
On the Faith from the Vatican Council I

There is one thing that must be injected at this point, and that is, Per Vatican Council I….” On Faith”

1.   Likewise I accept sacred scripture

o   according to that sense which holy mother church held and holds,
   since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures;

o   nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

I embrace and accept the whole and every part of what was defined and declared by the holy council of Trent concerning original sin and justification.

There you have it a simple and complete rundown. Of why BD is not a teaching of the Church.
For those who obstantly believe this Theory, IMO are denying a Dogma. EENS.
If your not in the Church, (Baptism is the only way into the Church, ) Your Outside the Church. "Outside the Church there is No Salvation". Plain and Simple.......

God Bless You

bowler · « **Reply #92 on:** August 13, 2013, 06:14:16 PM »

Quote from: Director

That being the case, if the “Fat” was eliminated out of the equation , (Saints, Doctors, theologians), what we have left is what the Church teaches.

Some observations:

The believers in "BOD of those who do not explicitly want to be Catholics", are denying ALL of the Doctors, Saints, and dogmatic decrees. Here is an actual example, notice that the individual described does not explicitly want to be a Catholic, nor does he desire to be baptized, nor does he even believe in Christ or His Church:

From the book Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre:

1. Page 216: “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion. There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire. It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.” END

There is no Father, nor Doctor, nor Saint that ever taught this! It is opposed to the Athanasian Creed, and all of the other dogmatic decrees on EENS. AND yet, the majority of believers in BOD subscribe to this belief! So why do they quote say St. Thomas on one hand, when they deny him with the other?

They do so because they are liberals, rationalists and modernists concerning this specific subject.

It is undeniable.

Binechi · « **Reply #93 on:** August 14, 2013, 06:18:26 AM »

You make some good points !!

Stubborn · « **Reply #94 on:** August 14, 2013, 06:28:07 AM »

Quote from: Director

You make some good points !!

As always.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #95 on:** August 14, 2013, 08:44:14 AM »

For the :devil2:

MyrnaM · « **Reply #96 on:** August 14, 2013, 08:50:11 AM »

Quote from: Director

Sorry ,, we have seen all this before , this is not from the Council of Trent, but a commentary.
We need the session and Chapter, with the words , Baptism of Desire,

Logically it should be under "Baptism", or the Sacraments. you might catch canon s 2 and 5 on Baptism for a refresher.

We have also seen all the dribble here that your ilk believes over and over again.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #97 on:** August 14, 2013, 08:55:31 AM »

Worth repeating posted from:

Quote from: Lover of Truth

The literal translation for what is usually called baptism of "desire" would be Baptism of the Holy GhostThe baptism of desire
The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin. The "baptism of the Holy Ghost" is a term employed in the third century by the anonymous author of the book "De Rebaptismate". The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John 3), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John 14): "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins. This doctrine is set forth clearly by the Council of Trent. In the fourteenth session (cap. iv) the council teaches that contrition is sometimes perfected by charity, and reconciles man to God, before the Sacrament of Penance is received. In the fourth chapter of the sixth session, in speaking of the necessity of baptism, it says that men can not obtain original justice "except by the washing of regeneration or its desire" (voto). The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius.

We have already alluded to the funeral oration pronounced by St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen. The doctrine of the baptism of desire is here clearly set forth. St. Ambrose asks: "Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly he obtained it because he asked for it." St. Augustine (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, IV.22) and St. Bernard (Ep. lxxvii, ad H. de S. Victore) likewise discourse in the same sense concerning the baptism of desire. If it be said that this doctrine contradicts the universal law of baptism made by Christ (John 3), the answer is that the lawgiver has made an exception (John 14) in favor of those who have the baptism of desire. Neither would it be a consequence of this doctrine that a person justified by the baptism of desire would thereby be dispensed from seeking after the baptism of water when the latter became a possibility. For, as has already been explained the baptismus flaminis contains the votum of receiving the baptismus aquæ. It is true that some of the Fathers of the Church arraign severely those who content themselves with the desire of receiving the sacrament of regeneration, but they are speaking of catechumens who of their own accord delay the reception of baptism from unpraiseworthy motives. Finally, it is to be noted that only adults are capable of receiving the baptism of desire.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

It is called "desire" in English but there is a lot more to it than just "desiring" to be in the true Church. Desire alone won't save anyone.

_____________

[/quote

Jehanne · « **Reply #98 on:** August 14, 2013, 10:43:38 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

For the :devil2:

"All hail Popess Myrna!"

Binechi · « **Reply #99 on:** August 14, 2013, 10:50:41 AM »

Wow , What did she eat for breakfast this morning ,,, Is she always like this ? :scared2:

MyrnaM · « **Reply #100 on:** August 14, 2013, 01:16:29 PM »

Director, you are too funny, to take serious. :guitar:

Ladislaus · « **Reply #101 on:** August 14, 2013, 02:33:58 PM »

Quote from: Director

Wow , What did she eat for breakfast this morning ,,, Is she always like this ? :scared2:

Yes, this is certainly a hot-button issue for Myrna.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #102 on:** August 14, 2013, 02:37:55 PM »

Quote from: Emerentiana

MATTO:

my question is:

Can you name any Feenyite priests (in other words, priests that believe that BOD and BOB are heretical)

I have heard that there are priests that subscribe to Feeny's beliefs.

You're starting to conflate issues already. Being a "Feeneyite" does not mean that you consider BOD / BOB to be "heretical". I don't believe in BOD/BOB, but I don't consider those who accept BOD/BOB for catechumens to be heretical. Nor is someone who rejects BOD/BOB necessarily a "Feeneyite".

Ladislaus · « **Reply #103 on:** August 14, 2013, 02:43:00 PM »

Quote from: Emerentiana

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Emerentiana
If you Feenyites cant name priests who support your views, then you certainly are in trouble!

Good heavens - where are you trying to go with this?

Why not ask about all the conciliar priests, nuns, bishops, cardinals and - lets not forget about the conciliar popes - who have pretty much nothing else whatsoever in common with the true faith except they all also believe the sacrament is unnecessary for salvation. Do you suppose that you are in good company?

I think my question is quite simple. I want to know who the legitimately ordained priests are who subscribe to the Feenite Heresy. Im talking about TRADITIONAL priests

We all know who the founder of this heresy is. it was Father Leonard Feeney. Are there any other priests in the US that follow his beliefs? Are there supposedly traditional priests out there who agree with Feeney and the Diamonds?
ALL of the traditional clergy in the world today do not subscribe to Feeney's beliefs, but there may be a few who have been influenced by Feeney.
If there are, there should be no problem for the Feenyites to say who they are. If there are clergy who subscribe to this they need to own up to it.
Feenyism is essentially a lay heresy. It is a misinterpretation of the teachings of the church on BOB and BOD.

I guess there arent any. I assume this by the silence of those here who subscribe to this heresy.

Diamond teaches these people that they can go to the traditional priests for the mass and the sacraments. They consider the priests valid but heretical.

I had a Feenyite friend who died recently. The priest who came to her for the last sacraments told her she had to RECANT her heresy or be denied the last rites. SHE DID RECANT!. All of you who subscribe to this error, please keep this in mind!

And you need to be very careful in glibbly throwing around accusations of "heresy". In that you put yourself in the company of the Dimond brothers (whom you appear to despise).

And the unfortunate ignorant priest who would threaten to withhold last Sacraments on the basis his own theological error risks being called to account before God for this. I am so tired of priests using the Sacraments as weapons and to blackmail people.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #104 on:** August 14, 2013, 02:48:54 PM »

Quote from: Director

We need to get straight some facts in defense of Fr. Leonard Feeney.
Fr. Feeney was considered the most knowledge theologian in the US at the time.
Fr. Feeney believed and taught that there was no Salvation for anyone without the Sacrament of Baptism.
Fr. Feeney is is said to have converted over 200 jews protestants, and atheists to the Catholic Faith.

I would add that his arch nemesis Cardinal Cushing once stated, "No salvation outside the Church? Nonsense. Nobody's going to tell me that Christ came to die for any select group." I suggest that the OP petition Rome for the canonization of that defender of the faith, Cardinal Cushing, for having put down the heresiarch Feeney.