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Author Topic: Feenyism  (Read 12041 times)

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Offline Augstine Baker

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Feenyism
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2011, 11:13:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Augstine Baker
    Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    Why don't you quote those "words" that are being twisted from "as they are written". You are full of it. The church teaches dogmatically that absolutely no one is saved outside of the Church even if they shed their blood for Christ.


    Where is the word 'absolutely' to be found in "EENS- Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"? I keep seeing this lately.

    You're making up your own dogma, to "EEANS- Extra Ecclesiam Absolutely Nulla Salus"


    I keep seeing you post things, but never actually say anything.

    Just hit the ignore button and go away.


    I think I made a pretty good point there. I guess it just really bothers you guys huh..

     :rolleyes:


    You add a letter to an abbreviation and that's a good point?

    Once again, just your own corn pone opinions.  You should probably realize too by now that you just saying something doesn't make it so.

    Offline s2srea

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    Feenyism
    « Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 09:13:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Augstine Baker
    Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Augstine Baker
    Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    Why don't you quote those "words" that are being twisted from "as they are written". You are full of it. The church teaches dogmatically that absolutely no one is saved outside of the Church even if they shed their blood for Christ.


    Where is the word 'absolutely' to be found in "EENS- Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"? I keep seeing this lately.

    You're making up your own dogma, to "EEANS- Extra Ecclesiam Absolutely Nulla Salus"


    I keep seeing you post things, but never actually say anything.

    Just hit the ignore button and go away.


    I think I made a pretty good point there. I guess it just really bothers you guys huh..

     :rolleyes:


    You add a letter to an abbreviation and that's a good point?

    Once again, just your own corn pone opinions.  You should probably realize too by now that you just saying something doesn't make it so.


    AB- I've seen more than a few times people interject the word "absolute" into EENS.  How is it that you don't get my point. I'm actually giving your your own advice: "just saying something doesn't make it so." That is, just by adding the word "absolutely" in to the dogma EENS, does not make it so, and this is what's dangerous.


    Offline Santo Subito

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    Feenyism
    « Reply #17 on: December 18, 2011, 10:35:02 AM »
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  • I see authoritative quotes were requested.

    I don't want to disappoint...

    MAGISTERIUM

        Pope St. Clement I, <Epistle to Corinth> 7.5-7 (c. 95 AD): "Let us go
        through all generations, and learn that in generation and generation
        the Master has given a place of repentance to those willing to turn
        to Him. Noah preached repentance, and those who heard him were saved.
        Jonah preached repentance to the Ninevites; those who repented for
        their sins appeased God in praying, and received salvation, even
        though they were aliens [allotrioi] of God."

        Pope St. Leo the Great, <Sermon> 23.4: (440-61 AD): "So God did not
        take are of human affairs by a new plan, or by late mercy, but from
        the foundation of the world He established one and the same cause of
        salvation for all. For the grace of God by which the totality of the
        saints always had been justified was increased when Christ was born,
        but did not begin [then]."

        Pope St. Gregory the Great, <Epistle VII>. 15: (540-604 AD): "When He
        descended to the underworld, the Lord delivered from the prison only
        those who while they lived in the flesh He had kept through His grace
        in faith and good works."

        <Homilies on Ezekiel> 2.3: "The passion of the Church began already
        with Abel, and there is one Church of the elect, of those who
        precede, and of those who follow... . They were, then, outside, but
        yet not divided from the holy Church, because in mind, in work, in
        preaching, they already held the sacraments of faith, and saw that
        loftiness of Holy Church."    
       
        Pope Pius IX, <Quanto conficiamur moerore> (1863: DS 2866): "God...
        in His supreme goodness and clemency, by no means allows anyone to be
        punished with eternal punishments who does not have the guilt of
        voluntary fault. But it is also a Catholic dogma, that no one outside
        the Catholic Church can be saved, and that those who are contumacious
        against the authority of the same Church [and] definitions and who
        are obstinately separated from the unity of this Church and from the
        Roman Pontiff, successor of Peter, to whom the custody of the
        vineyard was entrusted by the Savior, cannot obtain eternal
        salvation."[emphasis added].

        Pope Pius XII, <Mystici corporis> (1943: DS 3821): "They who do not
        belong to the visible bond of the Catholic Church... [we ask them to]
        strive to take themselves from that state in which they cannot be
        sure of their own eternal salvation; for even though they are ordered
        to the mystical body of the Redeemer by a certain desire and wish of
        which they are not aware [implicit in the general wish to do what God
        wills], yet they lack so many and so great heavenly gifts and helps
        which can be enjoyed only in the Catholic Church."

        Holy Office, Aug 9, 1949, condemning doctrine of L. Feeney (DS 3870):
        "It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a
        member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere
        to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be
        explicit... but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God
        accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is
        contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to
        conform his will to the will of God."

    FATHERS

        St. Justin Martyr, <Apology> 1.46 (c. 150 AD): "Christ is the Logos
        [Divine Word] of whom the whole race of men partake. Those who lived
        according to Logos are Christians, even if they were considered
        atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus."
        <Apology> 2.10:" Christ... was and is the Logos who is in everyone,
        and foretold through the prophets the things that were to come, and
        taught these things in person after becoming like to us in feeling."

        Shepherd of Hermas, <Vision> 2.4.1:(c. 140-55 AD): The angel asks
        Hermas who he thinks the old woman was who appeared. He thought it
        was the Sibyl: "You are wrong... . It is the Church. I said to him:
        Why then an old woman? He said: Because she was created first of all;
        for this reason she is an old woman, and because of her the world was
        established."

        <Second Clement> 14.2 (prob. c 150 A.D. ): "The books of the prophets
        and the apostles [say] that the Church is not [only] now, but from
        the beginning. She was spiritual, like also our Jesus. She was
        manifested in the last days to save us."

        St. Irenaeus, <Against Heresies> 4.28.2: (c. 140-202 AD): "There is
        one and the same God the Father and His Logos, always assisting the
        human race, with varied arrangements, to be sure, and doing many
        things, and saving from the beginning those who are saved, for they
        are those who love and, according to their generation (genean) follow
        His Logos." Ibid. 4.6.7: "For the Son, administering all things for
        the Father, completes [His work] from the beginning to the end... .
        For the Son, assisting to His own creation from the beginning,
        reveals the Father to all to whom He wills." Ibid. 4. 22. 2: "Christ
        came not only for those who believed from the time of Tiberius
        Caesar, nor did the Father provide only for those who are now, but
        for absolutely all men from the beginning, who, according to their
        ability, feared and loved God and lived justly... and desired to see
        Christ and to hear His voice."

        Clement of Alexandria, <Stromata> 7.17:(c. 20-11 AD): "From what has
        been said, I think it is clear that there is one true Church, which
        is really ancient, into which those who are just according to design
        are enrolled." Ibid 1. 5: "Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy
        was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for
        piety... for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the
        Hebrews." Ibid. 1.20.99:" Philosophy of itself made the Greeks just,
        though not to total justice; it is found to be a helper to this, like
        the first and second steps for one ascending to the upper part of the
        house, and like the elementary teacher for the [future]
        philosopher]."

        Origen, <On Canticles> 2.11-12: (c. 240 AD): "Do not think I speak of
        the spouse or the Church [only] from the coming of the Savior in the
        flesh, but from the beginning of the human race, in fact, to seek out
        the origin of this mystery more deeply with Paul as leader, even
        before the foundation of the world."

        <Against Celsus> 4.7: (c. 248 AD): "... there never was a time when
        God did not will to make just the life of men. But He always cared,
        and gave occasions of virtue to make the reasonable one right. For
        generation by generation this wisdom of God came to souls it found
        holy and made them friends of God and prophets."

        <On Romans II>, 9-10:(after 244 AD) [the law was written on hearts:
        Cf. Rom 2:14-16] "that they must not commit murder or adultery, not
        steal, not speak false testimony, that they honor father and mother,
        and similar things... and it is shown that each one is to be judged
        not according to a privilege of nature, but by his own thoughts he is
        accused or excused, by the testimony of his conscience."

        Homily on Numbers 16.1: (after 244 AD): "Since God wants grace to
        abound, He sees fit to be present... . He is present not to the
        [pagan] sacrifices, but to the one who comes to meet Him, and there
        He gives His word [Logos?]."

        Hegemonius (?) <Acts of Archelaus with Manes> 28: (c. 325-50 AD):
        "From the creation of the world He has always been with just men... .
        Were they not made just from the fact that they kept the law, 'Each
        one of them showing the work of the law on their hearts... ?'[cf. Rom
        2.14-16] For when someone who does not have the law does by nature
        the things of the law, this one, not having the law, is a law for
        himself... . For if we judge that a man is made just without the
        works of the law... how much more will they attain justice who
        fulfilled the law containing those things which are expedient for
        men?"

        Arnobius, <Against the Nations> 2.63:(c. 305 AD): "But, they say :If
        Christ was sent by God for this purpose, to deliver unhappy souls
        from the destruction of ruin - what did former ages deserve which
        before His coming were consumed in the condition of mortality? ... .
        Put aside thee cares, and leave the questions you do not understand;
        for royal mercy was imparted to them, and the divine benefits ran
        equally through all. They were conserved, they were liberated, and
        they put aside the sort and condition of mortality."

        Eusebius of Caesarea, <Church History> 1.1.4:(c. 311-25 AD): "But
        even if we [Christians] are certainly new, and this really new name
        of Christian is just recently known among the nations, yet our life
        and mode of conduct, in accord with the precepts of religion, has not
        been recently invented by us; but from the first creation of man, so
        to speak, it is upheld by natural inborn concepts of the ancient men
        who loved God, as we will here show... . But if someone would
        describe as Christians those who are testified to as having been
        righteous, [going back] from Abraham to the first man, he would not
        hit wide of the mark."

        St. Gregory of nαzιanzus, <Oration> 18.5 [at funeral of his father, a
        convert]:(c. 374 AD): "He was ours even before he was of our fold.
        His way of living made him such. For just as many of ours are not
        with us, whose life makes them other from our body [the Church], so
        many of those outside belong to us, who by their way of life
        anticipate the faith and need [only] the name, having the reality."

        <Oration> 8.20 [on his sister Gorgonia]: "Her whole life was a
        purification for her, and a perfecting. She had indeed the
        regeneration of the Spirit, and the assurance of this from her
        previous life. And, to speak boldly, the mystery [baptism] was for
        her practically only the seal, not the grace."

        St. John Chrysostom, <On Romans II>. 5: (c. 391 AD): "For this reason
        they are wonderful, he [Paul, in Romans 2:14-16] says, because they
        did not need the law, and they show all the works of the law... . Do
        you not see how again he makes present that day [Judgment in 2.16]
        and brings it near... and showing that they should rather be honored
        who without the law hastened to carry out the things of the law? ...
        Conscience and reasoning suffice in place of the law. Through these
        things he showed again that God made man self-sufficient in regard to
        the choice of virtue and fleeing evil... . He shows that even in
        these early times and before the giving of the law, men enjoyed
        complete Providence. For 'what is knowable of God' was clear to them,
        and what was good and what was evil they knew."

        Homilies on John 8.1: ( c. 389 AD): "Why, then, the gentiles accuse
        us saying: What was Christ doing in former times, not taking care...
        ? We will reply: Even before He was in the world, He took thought for
        His works, and was known to all who were worthy."

        St. Ambrose, <On Cain and Abel> 2.3.11:(after 375 AD): "Our price is
        the blood of Christ... . Therefore He brought the means of health to
        all so that whoever perishes, must ascribe the cause of his death to
        himself, for he was unwilling to be cured when he had a remedy... .
        For the mercy of Christ is clearly proclaimed on all."

        St. Augustine, <City of God> 18.47: (413-26 AD): "Nor do I think the
        Jews would dare to argue that no one pertained to God except the
        Israelites, from the time that Israel came to be... they cannot deny
        that there were certain men even in other nations who pertained to
        the true Israelites, the citizens of the fatherland above, not by
        earthly but by heavenly association."

        <Retractions> 1.13.3: (426-27 AD): "This very thing which is now
        called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, nor was it
        lacking from the beginning of the human race until Christ Himself
        came in the flesh, when the true religion, that already existed,
        began to be called Christian."

        <Epistle> 102.11-13, 15: (406-12 AD): "Wherefore since we call Christ
        the Word [Logos], through whom all things were made... under whose
        rule [was/is] every creature, spiritual and corporal... so those from
        the beginning of the human race who believed in Him and understood
        His somewhat [utcuмque] and lived according to His precepts devoutly
        and justly, whenever and wherever they were, beyond doubt they were
        saved through Him... . And yet from the beginning of the human race
        thee were not lacking persons who believed in Him, from Adam up to
        Moses, both in the very people of Israel... and in other nations
        before He came in the flesh."

        St. Prosper of Aquitaine, <De vocatione omnium gentium> 2.5: (c. 450
        AD): "...  according to it [Scripture] ... we believe and devoutly
        confess that never was the care of divine providence lacking to the
        totality of men... . To these, however [who have not yet heard of
        Christ] that general measure of help, which is always given from
        above to all men, is not denied."

        St. Nilus, <Epistle 1>. 154:(perhaps c. 430 AD): "In every nation the
        one who fears God and does justice is acceptable to Him. For it is
        clear that such a one is acceptable to God and is not to be cast
        aside, who at his own right time flees to the worship of the blessed
        knowledge of God."

        St. Cyril of Alexandria, <Against Julian> 3.107: (433-41 AD): "For if
        there is One over all, and there is no other besides Him, He would be
        Master of all, because He was Maker of all. For He is also the God of
        the gentiles, and has fully satisfied by laws implanted in their
        hearts, which the Maker has engraved in the hearts of all [cf. Rom
        2.14-16]. For when the gentiles, [Paul] says, not having the law, do
        by nature the things of the law, they show the work of the law
        written on their hearts. But since He is not only the Maker and God
        of the Jews [cf. Rom 3.29] but also of the gentiles... He sees fit by
        His providence to care not only for those who are of the blood of
        Israel, but also for all those upon the earth."

        Theodoret of Cyrus, <Interpretation of the Epistle to Romans>
        2.14-16:(425-50 AD): "For they who, before the Mosaic law, adorned
        their life with devout reasonings and good actions, testify that the
        divine law called for action, and they became lawgivers for
        themselves... . He [St. Paul] shows that the law of nature was
        written on hearts... . According to this image, let us describe the
        future judgment and the conscience of those accepting the charge and
        proclaiming the justice of the decision."

        <Remedy for Greek Diseases> 6.85-86:(429-37 AD): "But if you say: Why
        then did not the Maker of all fulfill this long ago? You are blaming
        even the physicians, since they keep the stronger medicines for last;
        having used the milder things first, they bring out the stronger
        things last. The all-wise Healer of our souls did this too. After
        employing various medicines... finally He brought forth this
        all-powerful and saving medicine.

        Primasius, Bishop of Hadrumetum, <On Romans> 2.14-16:(c. 560 AD):
        "'By nature they do the things of the law... . ' He [Paul] speaks
        either of those who keep the law of nature, who do not do to others
        what they do not want to be done to themselves; or, that even the
        gentiles naturally praise the good and condemn the wicked, which is
        the work of the law; or, of those who even now, when they do anything
        good, profess that they have received from God the means of pleasing
        God... . 'And their thoughts in turn accusing or even defending, on
        the day when God will judge the hidden things of men.' He speaks of
        altercations of thought... . and according to these we are to be
        judged on the day of the Lord."

        St. John Damascene, <Against Iconoclasts> 11:(late 7th cent. to 754
        AD): "The creed teaches us to believe also in one Holy Catholic and
        Apostolic church of God. The Catholic Church cannot be only
        apostolic, for the all-powerful might of her Head, which is Christ,
        is able through the Apostles to save the whole world. So there is a
        Holy Catholic Church of God, the assembly of the Holy Fathers who are
        from the ages, of the patriarchs, of prophets, apostles, evangelists,
        martyrs, to which are added all the gentiles who believe the same
        way."

    Offline nadieimportante

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    Feenyism
    « Reply #18 on: December 18, 2011, 01:19:39 PM »
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  • Dear Santo Subito,

    Thanks for the quotes, however, I don't see where they directly and clearly speak about the salvation or damnation of non-Catholics after the Ascension of our Lord, which is when baptism became the requirement for entrance into the Body of Christ and salvation. (Except for the 1950 letter, which is not tradition). Here's some quotes that are clear and to the point (see if you can find any that are this clear):

    In 203 A.D., Tertullian writes:
    “… it is in fact prescribed that no one can attain to salvation without Baptism, especially in view of that declaration of the Lord, who says: ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life [John 3:5]…”

    and

    “A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away … nor can we otherwise be saved, except by permanently abiding in the water.”

    St. Cyril of Jerusalem, 350 A.D.:

    “He says, ‘Unless a man be born again’ – and He adds the words ‘of water and the Spirit’ – he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God…..if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter into the kingdom of heaven.  A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.”


    Here are even St. Augustine and St. Ambrose speaking clearly against baptism of desire of the the catechumen:


    St. Augustine himself in many, many places affirms the universal Tradition of the Apostles that no one is saved without the Sacrament of Baptism; and, in fact, he denied the concept that a catechumen could be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism by his desire for it numerous times.

    St Augustine, 395: “… God does not forgive sins except to the baptized.”

    St. Augustine, 412: “… the Punic Christians call Baptism itself nothing else but salvation… Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the Churches of Christ hold inherently that without Baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the Kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal?  This is the witness of Scripture, too.”

    St. Augustine, 391: “When we shall have come into His [God’s] sight, we shall behold the equity of God’s justice.  Then no one will say:… ‘Why was this man led by God’s direction to be baptized, while that man, though he lived properly as a catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster, and was not baptized?’ Look for rewards, and you will find nothing except punishments.”

    St. Augustine: “However much progress the catechumen should make, he still carries the load of his iniquity: nor is it removed from him unless he comes to Baptism.”
       
    St. Augustine: “However much progress the catechumen should make, he still carries the load of his iniquity: nor is it removed from him unless he comes to Baptism.”
     
    St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

    St. Ambrose, De mysteriis, 390-391 A.D.:

    “You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood, and the spirit; and if you withdraw any one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element without any sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ [John 3:5] Even a catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, by which also he is signed; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive the remission of sins nor be recipient of the gift of spiritual grace.”

    St. Ambrose, The Duties of Clergy, 391 A.D.:
    “The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed he must circuмcise himself from his sins so that he can be saved;...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the Sacrament of Baptism.”



    St. Ambrose, The Duties of Clergy, 391 A.D.:
    “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ No one excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.”
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline Santo Subito

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    Feenyism
    « Reply #19 on: December 18, 2011, 04:55:56 PM »
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  • http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/eens.html

    Quote
    before I get to the texts themselves, we must look at a couple of assumptions that Feeneyites hold, when they, outside the legitimate magisterial authority, declare what these decrees say. They affirm that these decrees hold that only Baptized Roman Catholics can be saved. These are assumptions that they must hold, but seem hard for them to admit. I am sure that there are other assumptions, but the following are apparent ones that come to my mind.

    1) The most important Feeneyite assumption is that those being mentioned as being excluded from salvation includes those who have never heard the message of salvation as proclaimed by Christ’s Church. There is thus no way out, unless one physically becomes a member of Christ’s Church. The question of whether people are culpable is irrelevant, because the decrees leave no room for any ifs, ands or buts. That is the main assumption behind the Feeneyite line. Thus, we would expect in the decrees, such statements to be made. They will quote Romans 1 which says they have no excuse. Of course, they ignore Romans 2:14-15, which shows that those who obey what is written on their heart, would achieve salvation. We would thus expect, in the three de fide decrees, statements from the Popes, that there would be a de fide definition declaring that those who love Christ, but die before having the chance to be baptized, are condemned to hell. We would also expect, that the Popes and Councils would be explicit, or at least implicitly mention, in these very decrees, that those who never heard the message would also be condemned, and would fall within the mention of those who can not achieve salvation. However, when we examine these decrees, we will see that neither of these assumptions are true.

    2) The next assumption is that most Church Fathers were wrong on the issue. In my piece, I gave lots of quotes from Church Fathers and Popes who though they declared almost to a man, their belief in ‘No Salvation Outside the Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, hereafter termed EENS), also left room for those who by by desire for baptism could still attain salvation. Even those most often quoted by Feeneyites in support of their position, would often at least grant exceptions for those who died if they died a baptism of blood before being baptized. The earliest Christian apologists, such as Justin Martyr and St. Ireneaus, who also declared EENS, also declared that if people responded to whatever grace that God had given them, if even not baptized members of the Catholic Church, could be saved. The Feeneyites will often quote a Pope who showed that Church Fathers can err, and in fact quote a Pope who argued that St. Augustine erred on an issue, and he did not have authority over the Pope. Yes, it is true that the Church Fathers have erred on issues and are not infallible; nevertheless, with such an array of Church Fathers speaking out against the Feeneyite position, it is strange that there is never any mention of any of the Fathers who favored the broader view of salvation, as being wrong on the issue. If St. Augustine was so wrong on what later would be a de fide definition, why did not the Pope say he was wrong on this issue? After all, St. Augustine, also did argue that those who loved Christ, and died before receiving baptism (all the while still confirming the necessity of baptism) could still be saved. Why such a silence from the Councils and Popes if all these Church Fathers were wrong on such an important issue?

    3) Another assumption is that since these de fide definitions, Popes and Councils have not done their job for 700 years in condemning heresy among Saints!!! The great doctor of the Church, for example is St. Thomas Aquinas. As pointed out in my prior essay, he affirmed unhesitatingly at the same time that he affirmed the necessity of baptism, that those who desired baptism, but died before they could get baptized, would achieve salvation. If his writing on such a pivotal issue did not square up with the first de fide definition, then Popes have tolerated heresy among its ranks for 700 years. Is that likely? His writings have been promulgated with great gusto in the magisterium, and yet there is no record of his condemnation!!! How could St. Thomas be canonized if he taught such a deceiving heresy? The Catholic Church does not canonize heretics. At the least the Pope would have said “You know, he got most things right, but he made a heretical statement on salvation. But despite that, he was Ok, so we canonize him because of his other writings. ” However, not one mention of him being wrong on this issue. You would figure that among the anathemas sits written in the past centuries, at least one of them would have been on those who held to that one could achieve salvation without water baptism, or on other Saints (such as St. Frances De Sales) who argued that one who did not hear the message of the gospel could achieve salvation through Christ, though he was invincibly ignorant. The Father Feeney assumption is that the magisterium, right after the decrees of the Council of Trent, promulgated an errant Catechism (that said one would achieve salvation with a desire for baptism as mentioned in my prior piece). The magisterium has promulgated three Catechisms that teach heresy (Council of Trent, Pius X, and the recent Catechisms). Thus, the Feeneyite assumption is that the Popes and Councils have promulgated heretical teachings of Saints who taught after the de fide definition of EENS. That is unlikely to say the least.

    4) We have an assumption that the pope who promulgated the first de fide definition, just a few years earlier, wrote heresy, as we will see later. I have been called a heretic by several Feeneyites. If so, I join the ranks of Popes who taught likewise. According to them, the Popes have been in heresy for almost 140 years or so. From the writings of Pope Pius IX, St. Pope Pius X, Pope Pius XII, Paul VI, John Paul II, etc. all have taught heresy, because they taught that those who are invincibly ignorant, have the possibility of achieving salvation. None of the Popes mentioned downplayed the importance of people joining the Catholic Church. Here one has access to the salvific sacraments. They have left room for the possibility of salvation for those who though not directly joining the Roman Catholic Church, still could be linked to the Church, if they truly desire, and respond to whatever grace God has given them. We supposedly thus have heresy in the ranks of the popes. Not once or twice, but repeatedly. Of course, that does a hatchet job of Matthew 16:18 (which says the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church) Now, to the texts themselves:


    Offline nadieimportante

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    « Reply #20 on: December 18, 2011, 05:15:45 PM »
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  • Santo Subito,

    Who is the source of what you posted? It looks like it's the personal opinions of an anonymous blogger. What's the difference between him and any other person on CI that posts their personal opinions?
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #21 on: December 18, 2011, 05:19:50 PM »
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  • Nadie, did it ever occur to you that YOU are the one posting your own personal opinions? Please, either cite some darn good sources and evidence for Feeneyism or move on.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline nadieimportante

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    « Reply #22 on: December 18, 2011, 07:43:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Nadie, did it ever occur to you that YOU are the one posting your own personal opinions? Please, either cite some darn good sources and evidence for Feeneyism or move on.


    What planet did you just land from? My modus-operandi is to let quotes from authorities do my talking. There is not one person on CI that has quoted more dogma, councils, Fathers of the Church, doctors, Saints etc. I've posted so much that people here are upset at all the quotes because they don't want to read it all.

    By the way, only uneducated Americans call my beliefs "Feeneyism". Where I come from, we are taught that all non-Catholics go to hell (EENS just as it is written, what could be clearer?). Anyone taught by Spaniard priests prior to the 1960's was taught the same, and the majority of Catholics in the world are Spanish (or Portuguese)speaking.

    American Catholic bishops and "periti" brought us Vatican II (along with the Germanics), and all the rest of the garbage we have today. In South America all non-Catholic religions, by law, were not allowed to proselytize, or have any signs on their  meeting places. In the USA, all Catholics have always been subdued  by the Protestants, and had to lay low., and thus the clergy came up with all these excuses how non-Catholics are not all lost to hell. That's an American problem. Fr. Feeney would have had nothing to teach us in South America.

    Call me a mad radical Spaniard if you wish,  learn something new about the world, and get off this never been out of the country Gringo "Feeneyite"  labeling of anyone who for believes the clear dogmas as they are clearly written.


    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #23 on: December 18, 2011, 08:22:04 PM »
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  • Whatever nadie, I'm through with this topic.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #24 on: December 18, 2011, 09:16:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    It would be more accurate to call us Chrysostom-ites

    St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And well should the pagan lament, who not knowing God, dying goes straight to punishment. Well should the Jew mourn, who not believing in Christ, has assigned his soul to perdition.”

    St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And plainly must we grieve for our own catechumens, should they, either through their own unbelief or through their own neglect, depart this life without the saving grace of baptism.”


    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3:
    “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”


    St. John Chrysostom, Homily III. On Phil. 1:1-20:
    “Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, ‘Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.”


    St. John Chrysostom, Homily XXV: “Hear, ye as many as are unilluminated, shudder, groan, fearful is the threat, fearful is the sentence. ‘It is not possible,’ He [Christ] saith, ‘for one not born of water and the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of heaven’; because he wears the raiment of death, of cursing, of perdition, he hath not yet received his Lord’s token, he is a stranger and an alien, he hath not the royal watchword. ‘Except,’ He saith, ‘a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven.”





    Nadie,

    Didn't you recently say on another thread that quoting a saint, even a doctor of the Church, does not establish something as dogma.  

    St. John Chrysostom holy bishop and doctor of the Church that he was, was wrong about this.  Thomas Aquinas was wrong about the Immaculate Conception.  

    So what?  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline GertrudetheGreat

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    « Reply #25 on: December 19, 2011, 12:04:20 AM »
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  • You guys are at cross-purposes.

    There is no salvation outside the Church.  That means absolutely none.  Not any.  Zero.  Nada.

    All of the approved theologians teach this, there are no exceptions (this doesn't include heterodox theologians, such as the ones who were silenced before Vatican II and then re-emerged to bring us Vatican II, because they were not "approved" but rather disapproved).

    Implicit faith is a standard doctrine in all of the manuals.  Any Catholic who doesn't know about some dogma or other (e.g. that Antichrist will be a individual person) still believes that dogma, but by implicit rather than explicit faith.

    Anybody who dies and is saved, has died within the Church.

    That does not mean that they had to be a member of the Church, because membership and being "within" are distinct concepts with distinct meanings.  The Church has never defined that only "members of the Church" go to heaven.

    In order to be a member of the Church, one must be baptised (i.e. with water).  St. Emerentiana went to heaven, obviously, but she was not baptised.  She had original and any actual sins remitted by desire for baptism and perfect charity.  Obviously she had supernatural faith.  She was within the Church, but not a member of the Church.

    In order to be within the Church at death one must be in the state of grace.  In order to be in the state of grace one must have had original and mortal actual sins forgiven.  That means baptism or the desire for it.  It also means Penance or an act of perfect contrition.  It also implies supernatural faith.  Supernatural faith may be implicit, but that means implicit in something.  That something includes at least the truths that God is, and that He rewards the good and punishes the wicked.  The better theologians also maintain that knowledge of the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption are required.  

    The Church has condemned the idea that one may hold good hope for anybody who dies not in any way in the Church.  This means that if somebody dies and there are no external signs that they died in the Church, we are not to hold good hope for them.

    Nadie is wrong in equating membership in the Church with the dogma that one must die within the Church to be saved.  But he is right in arguing against the notion that there are exceptions to the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church. There is no salvation outside the Church.  There are only the ordinary way of being in the Church, by membership, and the extraordinary way of being within the Church, by desire.

    All who die as Jews, Protestants, pagans, etc., go to hell for all eternity.  If somebody who has lived as a Protestant converts on his deathbed and fulfils the conditions of salvation, even if nobody in this world knows about it, he will be saved, because he was brought by grace into the Church before death.  So he is saved because he is in the Church, because he converted before death.  But we are not permitted to speculate that anybody like that converted and was saved, since there is no evidence that he did.  On the contrary, we presume that they died as they lived, and were lost.


    Offline nadieimportante

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    « Reply #26 on: December 19, 2011, 03:10:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    It would be more accurate to call us Chrysostom-ites

    St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And well should the pagan lament, who not knowing God, dying goes straight to punishment. Well should the Jew mourn, who not believing in Christ, has assigned his soul to perdition.”

    St. John Chrysostom, The Consolation of Death: “And plainly must we grieve for our own catechumens, should they, either through their own unbelief or through their own neglect, depart this life without the saving grace of baptism.”


    St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in Io. 25, 3:
    “For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble.”


    St. John Chrysostom, Homily III. On Phil. 1:1-20:
    “Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, ‘Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.”


    St. John Chrysostom, Homily XXV: “Hear, ye as many as are unilluminated, shudder, groan, fearful is the threat, fearful is the sentence. ‘It is not possible,’ He [Christ] saith, ‘for one not born of water and the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of heaven’; because he wears the raiment of death, of cursing, of perdition, he hath not yet received his Lord’s token, he is a stranger and an alien, he hath not the royal watchword. ‘Except,’ He saith, ‘a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven.”





    Nadie,

    Didn't you recently say on another thread that quoting a saint, even a doctor of the Church, does not establish something as dogma.  

    St. John Chrysostom holy bishop and doctor of the Church that he was, was wrong about this.  Thomas Aquinas was wrong about the Immaculate Conception.  

    So what?  


    Read again what was written. If it was one oddball quote, it would not establish something as a dogma. However, in the case of the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation, the oddball quotes are just 2 possible quotes for salvation of the catechumen. Moreover, there are no quotes in favor of implicit desire, implicit faith, or invincible ignorance, on the contrary there are tons of quotes against them. AND there are all the dogmatic decrees from the Church which confirm the opinions of the Fathers, and not one dogmatic decree in favor of even baptism of desire of the catechumen, let alone all the other liberal variants the teach that no desire for baptism is necessary.
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline GertrudetheGreat

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    « Reply #27 on: December 19, 2011, 07:34:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante


    Read again what was written. If it was one oddball quote, it would not establish something as a dogma. However, in the case of the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation, the oddball quotes are just 2 possible quotes for salvation of the catechumen. Moreover, there are no quotes in favor of implicit desire, implicit faith, or invincible ignorance, on the contrary there are tons of quotes against them. AND there are all the dogmatic decrees from the Church which confirm the opinions of the Fathers, and not one dogmatic decree in favor of even baptism of desire of the catechumen, let alone all the other liberal variants the teach that no desire for baptism is necessary.


    OK, so you do only believe what the Church has solemnly defined.  You do reject the witness of the theologians to the constant, universal, teaching of the Church.  You do treat the dogmatic definitions as a Protestant treats the Holy Scriptures, using private interpretation.

    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #28 on: December 19, 2011, 07:49:57 AM »
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  • NadieImportante, I'm curious, do you think holding that God may confer baptism as an extraordinary means of the sacrament, to those who desire it illuminated by supernatural faith and animated by perfect charity, is an actual heresy? Surely it is at the least a permissible theological opinion.

    Do you think the theologians who held otherwise are even ignorant of the patristic and conciliar Tradition of the Church? Do you believe, then, that Pope Pius IX committed heresy when in his Encyclical he said "those struggling with invincible ignorance of our most holy religion ... are able to attain eternal life through the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."

    The Holy Father saw no contradiction at all between this and affirming that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. That is because such souls are brought into the bosom of the Church by God Himself unknown to us through extraordinary means and so are not saved outside the Church. Now, the good God is not bound at all to reveal to us the number of such souls nor His hidden ways. The number may be zero, it may be something else. It suffices for us to know the Church teaches this in her official Encyclicals.

    God has bound salvation, and thus entrance to the Church, to the sacraments, but He has not bound Himself to confer the fruits of the sacraments i.e. their attendant sanctifying graces, which for baptism involves being made a partaker in the communion of Saints on earth and in heaven, only through His priests and by natural means.

    For instance, spiritual communion is an extraordinary means of obtaining the fruits of the Holy Eucharist through desire. Perfect contrition is an extraordinary means of obtaining the fruits of Penance and neither are accounted apart from the sacrament, nor dispense from one's obligations as laid down by the Church.

    Now, it seems to me that all Catholics are absolutely free to hold that this never happens in practice. Indeed, that is the safer position, since we cannot know for certain the hidden ways of God, and have no right to suppose that God will provide supernatural means in those instances when it is in our natural power to do otherwise. Thus, we would be in the wrong if we did not proclaim baptism to pagans or return to the Catholic Church to heretics.

    It seems to me that the only sentiment you and all those who agree with you express, NadieImportante, that I think is difficult to reconcile with what Pope Pius IX said, is that the God who understands all hearts is in any way bound to give His graces only through ordinary means. I am sure you do not hold this with regard to penance and Holy communion. Why baptism?

    Finally, it also seems perfectly permissible as a theological opinion to hold that there are and have never been such souls that match the description of the Holy Father, for like I said their number is hidden and known only to God, and may well be zero, but not to treat this as dogmatically certain, and it is in this sense that Fr.Feeney was reconciled to the Church in my estimation.

    Offline pax

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    « Reply #29 on: December 19, 2011, 01:01:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    Why don't you quote those "words" that are being twisted from "as they are written". You are full of it. The church teaches dogmatically that absolutely no one is saved outside of the Church even if they shed their blood for Christ.


    Where is the word 'absolutely' to be found in "EENS- Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"? I keep seeing this lately.

    You're making up your own dogma, to "EEANS- Extra Ecclesiam Absolutely Nulla Salus"


    The Fourth Lateran Council, Canon I, par. iii:

    There is one Universal Church of the faithful, outside of which there is absolutely no salvation. In which there is the same priest and sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the forms of bread and wine; the bread being changed (transsubstantiatio) by divine power into the body, and the wine into the blood, so that to realize the mystery of unity we may receive of Him what He has received of us. And this sacrament no one can effect except the priest who has been duly ordained in accordance with the keys of the Church, which Jesus Christ Himself gave to the Apostles and their successors.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.