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Quote from: Jehanne

The Fathers at Lateran, Constance, Florence, and Trent, when they specified votum with respect to Baptism had nothing in common with the modernist heretics that began swarming the Vatican in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Note that Lateran IV, Vienne and Florence made no mention at all of votum.

The Trent mentions votum, saying explicitly that justification cannot take place without it.  In the same decree as it states it cannot take place without the laver of regeneration.  It does not even approach to saying that justification CAN take place with only one or the other and to assert otherwise is just plain distortion.

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Quote from: Jehanne

The Fathers at Lateran, Constance, Florence, and Trent, when they specified votum with respect to Baptism had nothing in common with the modernist heretics that began swarming the Vatican in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Note that Lateran IV, Vienne and Florence made no mention at all of votum.

The Trent mentions votum, saying explicitly that justification cannot take place without it.  In the same decree as it states it cannot take place without the laver of regeneration.  It does not even approach to saying that justification CAN take place with only one or the other and to assert otherwise is just plain distortion.

Excellent point.  Point is, Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.  One cannot receive Baptism without the vow for it.  It cannot be accepted "implicitly" or "unconsciousnessly," and it is heresy to say otherwise.  The Church was absolutely clear about this.

This is wrong. The SACRAMENT is not ABSOLUTELY necessary in all cases.

Supernatural Faith AND charity are required and have been at ALL times, for salvation. The sacraments were not (before they even existed) and are not today in ALL cases.

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Quote from: Jehanne

The Fathers at Lateran, Constance, Florence, and Trent, when they specified votum with respect to Baptism had nothing in common with the modernist heretics that began swarming the Vatican in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Note that Lateran IV, Vienne and Florence made no mention at all of votum.

The Trent mentions votum, saying explicitly that justification cannot take place without it.  In the same decree as it states it cannot take place without the laver of regeneration.  It does not even approach to saying that justification CAN take place with only one or the other and to assert otherwise is just plain distortion.

Excellent point.  Point is, Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.  One cannot receive Baptism without the vow for it.  It cannot be accepted "implicitly" or "unconsciousnessly," and it is heresy to say otherwise.  The Church was absolutely clear about this.

This is wrong. The SACRAMENT is not ABSOLUTELY necessary in all cases.

Supernatural Faith AND charity are required and have been at ALL times, for salvation. The sacraments were not (before they even existed) and are not today in ALL cases.

I will let CM have this one!  Just curious, SJB, are you male or female?  I need to know this so that I may tailor the "tone" of my response.

The sacramental effect of baptism is necessary, the actual sacrament itself is not.  The effect 'can' (and I say can because it is unlikely but possible and has happened) be supplied through desire or martyrdom.