Author Topic: Is there a such thing as a "Good" Jew? (Read 4317 times)

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #30 on:** May 05, 2013, 08:09:14 PM »

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What about Jews who convert to the Catholic Faith?

They are no longer Jews, then.

But isn't there a blood and ethnicity component to being Jєωιѕн? I was wondering because I know some people who are Catholics that used to be Jews and I was curious as to whether they would still be considered Jєωιѕн or not.

No, Judaism is a religion. Hence why you have American Jews, Polish Jews, Russian Jews, etc.

I still think Judaism is a race. There has to be some people today who are descendants of the tribes of Israel. Those people I would say are Jews by race. Then there are converts after that.

Do you believe those people can be saved if they convert?

I'm not sure why you are asking that. We should all know that Jesus Christ came so that all of mankind could be saved. Why would I think Jews couldn't be? I will say that if they did want to convert then we should send them back to Israel and then they can convert there.

bowler · « **Reply #31 on:** May 06, 2013, 03:03:06 PM »

Quote from: InfiniteFaith

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Do you think there might be Jews out there that fall into the category of Baptism of Desire thus giving them a chance for Salvation? I imagine if there are then there would be few of them. Even if there are I still think we should deport them to Israel for the sake of Christianity. What do you think?

1) No Father of the Church or saint ever taught that a Pagan, Jew, Schismatic, or heretic could be saved by implicit faith in a God that rewards

2) No Father of the Church ever taught that a Pagan, Jew, Schismatic, or heretic could be saved by implicit baptism of desire.

3) I can't even remember now what one Father of the Church taught that a catechumen with explicit desire to be baptized could be saved. And please don't say it was St. Ambrose or St. Augustine.

4) Some Fathers did teach baptism of blood, but I never heard of any examples of BOB martyrs in the last 1800 years (If there really ever were any. There is no way to know that they were not baptized)

“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 46).

What is reason? He does not say. There's like hundreds of quotes from the Fathers teaching that all who die unbaptized are lost.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #32 on:** May 06, 2013, 03:37:41 PM »

Quote from: brainglitch

Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: brainglitch
What about Jews who convert to the Catholic Faith?

They are no longer Jews, then.

But isn't there a blood and ethnicity component to being Jєωιѕн? I was wondering because I know some people who are Catholics that used to be Jews and I was curious as to whether they would still be considered Jєωιѕн or not.

There are, and have been throughout history, many Jews who converted to Catholicism for the sole purpose of mischief and the deliberate destruction of ancient texts and sources of historical connection. Jews, in following their religious beliefs, are under no obligation to be honest with non-Jews.

Queen Esther, for one, is a sacred figure in Jєωιѕн lore who pretended to not be a Jew so she could ingratiate herself to a powerful gentile and be of assistance to the Jєωιѕн people.

There's even Jacob, while in the employ of Laban, weasling his way through the stock of sheep procuring the best for himself by means of deception.

We are in search of the mythical "good Jew" and still looking.

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #33 on:** May 06, 2013, 06:53:09 PM »

Quote from: brainglitch

So if they convert, do you think they are Catholic? It would seem a bit contradictory to call them "Catholic Jews".

We have Catholics who are Germans, Mexicans, Polish, etc.

Those are all ethnicities, and being Jєωιѕн is also an ethnicity.

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #34 on:** May 06, 2013, 09:12:22 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: InfiniteFaith
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Quote from: InfiniteFaith
Do you think there might be Jews out there that fall into the category of Baptism of Desire thus giving them a chance for Salvation? I imagine if there are then there would be few of them. Even if there are I still think we should deport them to Israel for the sake of Christianity. What do you think?

1) No Father of the Church or saint ever taught that a Pagan, Jew, Schismatic, or heretic could be saved by implicit faith in a God that rewards

2) No Father of the Church ever taught that a Pagan, Jew, Schismatic, or heretic could be saved by implicit baptism of desire.

3) I can't even remember now what one Father of the Church taught that a catechumen with explicit desire to be baptized could be saved. And please don't say it was St. Ambrose or St. Augustine.

4) Some Fathers did teach baptism of blood, but I never heard of any examples of BOB martyrs in the last 1800 years (If there really ever were any. There is no way to know that they were not baptized)

“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 46).

What is reason? He does not say. There's like hundreds of quotes from the Fathers teaching that all who die unbaptized are lost.

You know of any?

brainglitch · « **Reply #35 on:** May 06, 2013, 09:28:35 PM »

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

Quote from: brainglitch
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: brainglitch
What about Jews who convert to the Catholic Faith?

They are no longer Jews, then.

But isn't there a blood and ethnicity component to being Jєωιѕн? I was wondering because I know some people who are Catholics that used to be Jews and I was curious as to whether they would still be considered Jєωιѕн or not.

There are, and have been throughout history, many Jews who converted to Catholicism for the sole purpose of mischief and the deliberate destruction of ancient texts and sources of historical connection. Jews, in following their religious beliefs, are under no obligation to be honest with non-Jews.

Queen Esther, for one, is a sacred figure in Jєωιѕн lore who pretended to not be a Jew so she could ingratiate herself to a powerful gentile and be of assistance to the Jєωιѕн people.

There's even Jacob, while in the employ of Laban, weasling his way through the stock of sheep procuring the best for himself by means of deception.

We are in search of the mythical "good Jew" and still looking.

What do you think of cases such as Alphonse Ratisbone?Do you think that he was faking his conversion?

Or do all Jews fake their conversion? Should we treat all Jews who convert as Marranos until proven otherwise (although I am not sure how you could prove that)?

brainglitch · « **Reply #36 on:** May 06, 2013, 09:30:10 PM »

Quote from: InfiniteFaith

Quote from: brainglitch
Quote from: InfiniteFaith
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: brainglitch
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: brainglitch
What about Jews who convert to the Catholic Faith?

They are no longer Jews, then.

But isn't there a blood and ethnicity component to being Jєωιѕн? I was wondering because I know some people who are Catholics that used to be Jews and I was curious as to whether they would still be considered Jєωιѕн or not.

No, Judaism is a religion. Hence why you have American Jews, Polish Jews, Russian Jews, etc.

I still think Judaism is a race. There has to be some people today who are descendants of the tribes of Israel. Those people I would say are Jews by race. Then there are converts after that.

Do you believe those people can be saved if they convert?

I'm not sure why you are asking that. We should all know that Jesus Christ came so that all of mankind could be saved. Why would I think Jews couldn't be? I will say that if they did want to convert then we should send them back to Israel and then they can convert there.

Israel?

Don't you mean occupied Palestine? The Israelis should recognize the independence of the free State of Palestine and stop butchering innocent civilians to impose their martial law and apartheid.

Traditional Guy 20 · « **Reply #37 on:** May 06, 2013, 10:04:53 PM »

Quote from: brainglitch

Israel?

Don't you mean occupied Palestine? The Israelis should recognize the independence of the free State of Palestine and stop butchering innocent civilians to impose their martial law and apartheid.

Israel is obviously an apartheid state and Gaza is an Israeli cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ however we know who has the true power and that is the Jews.

By the way speaking of apartheid are you happy that a train bomber and terrorist like Mendela became a leader in South Africa?

brainglitch · « **Reply #38 on:** May 06, 2013, 10:17:49 PM »

Quote from: Traditional Guy 20

Quote from: brainglitch
Israel?

Don't you mean occupied Palestine? The Israelis should recognize the independence of the free State of Palestine and stop butchering innocent civilians to impose their martial law and apartheid.

Israel is obviously an apartheid state and Gaza is an Israeli cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ however we know who has the true power and that is the Jews.

By the way speaking of apartheid are you happy that a train bomber and terrorist like Mendela became a leader in South Africa?

Mandela is a terrorist and should have spent the rest of his life in prison. A murderer should not be a head of state.

I also believe that the African nations should not have become independent until they were fully Catholic, which (barring the disaster of Vatican II) would have happened in due course. Probably the European nations should have stayed for another hundred years, perhaps longer. Then, there would have been the same good results that occurred in South and Central America (although the Americas would have been even better, had the Spanish stayed longer). The African nations could have become gradually independent as they developed a fully Catholic identity, and truly organic nations could have emerged, rather than the patchwork nations-in-name-only that the European modernists left behind.

Emitte Lucem Tuam · « **Reply #39 on:** May 07, 2013, 05:29:37 AM »

Quote from: brainglitch

Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: brainglitch
What about Jews who convert to the Catholic Faith?

They are no longer Jews, then.

But isn't there a blood and ethnicity component to being Jєωιѕн? I was wondering because I know some people who are Catholics that used to be Jews and I was curious as to whether they would still be considered Jєωιѕн or not.

Galatians 3:26-29

For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.

poche · « **Reply #40 on:** May 07, 2013, 11:57:25 PM »

Quote from: InfiniteFaith

Do you think there might be Jews out there that fall into the category of Baptism of Desire thus giving them a chance for Salvation? I imagine if there are then there would be few of them. Even if there are I still think we should deport them to Israel for the sake of Christianity. What do you think?

That is something known only to God. There are problably a lot more than we realize.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #41 on:** May 07, 2013, 11:57:58 PM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: InfiniteFaith
Do you think there might be Jews out there that fall into the category of Baptism of Desire thus giving them a chance for Salvation? I imagine if there are then there would be few of them. Even if there are I still think we should deport them to Israel for the sake of Christianity. What do you think?

That is something known only to God. There are problably a lot more than we realize.

Huh?