"Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none."
Saint Francis Xavier

I think that Saint Francis Xavier erred.  Here is a completely orthodox path of salvation for those Japanese peoples who lived prior to the coming of Saint Francis Xavier:

1)  As "anyone whatsoever" (Fourth Lateran Council, Canon 1) can administer a valid sacramental Baptism, and as for an infant, a valid baptism is always a fruitful one, it is possible that some of these "Japanese ancestors" were sacramentally baptized in their infancies, perhaps even by angels who, Saint Thomas Aquinas teaches, can validly administer a Sacrament.

2)  As the One and Triune God can raise individuals back to life, so, too, He can grant "salutary repentance" at death's door, so it is possible that these Japanese ancestors, especially those in Category #1, received forgiveness just prior to their particular judgments.

Positions #1 and #2, by the way, are explicitly espoused by the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire, if only as possibilities but not as certainties.

Positions #1 and #2, by the way, are explicitly espoused by the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire, if only as possibilities but not as certainties.

As if they were any bulwark of orthodoxy.

Quote from: MyrnaM

I have often wondered, knowing this is not de fide, yet I wonder.

What's not de fide? No salvation outside the Church?

Quote from: MyrnaM

God knows all things. He would know that if a person was born ignorant of the Faith, yet He knew IF that same person was born during a different time, under different circuмstances and environments, would have accepted all the Truths of His religion, would it be possible an angel could administer the sacraments at God's perfect timing for someone.  Manifesting "the unerring keenness of His justice, and the might of His love."   (quote from a prayer)

How blasphemous. You believe in an impotent God who supposedly knows all these people "would certainly be good Catholics if only they knew" but is utterly incapable of making these people COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM. He sees them in their plight but remains a helpless spectator.

Quote from: MyrnaM

I believe with all my heart, NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH,  

No you don't.

Quote from: MyrnaM

however I fear for these people who insist on limiting God's mercy.

Fear for yourself, putting limits to God's power and denying His omnipotence.

And don't say saving people without being Catholics is a show of omnipotence or mercy, for that is heretical, AND, it makes no point in being Catholic at all if God can just "save you later".

God cannot lie.

You seem to know more than God, and twist words and thoughts like the  :devil2:

A mind reader too!   WoW!  At least I said, "I wonder" your note sounds de fide in nature.  

Quote from: MyrnaM

I have often wondered, knowing this is not de fide, yet I wonder.

What's not de fide? No salvation outside the Church?

Quote from: MyrnaM

God knows all things. He would know that if a person was born ignorant of the Faith, yet He knew IF that same person was born during a different time, under different circuмstances and environments, would have accepted all the Truths of His religion, would it be possible an angel could administer the sacraments at God's perfect timing for someone.  Manifesting "the unerring keenness of His justice, and the might of His love."   (quote from a prayer)

How blasphemous. You believe in an impotent God who supposedly knows all these people "would certainly be good Catholics if only they knew" but is utterly incapable of making these people COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM. He sees them in their plight but remains a helpless spectator.

Quote from: MyrnaM

I believe with all my heart, NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH,  

No you don't.

Quote from: MyrnaM

however I fear for these people who insist on limiting God's mercy.

Fear for yourself, putting limits to God's power and denying His omnipotence.

And don't say saving people without being Catholics is a show of omnipotence or mercy, for that is heretical, AND, it makes no point in being Catholic at all if God can just "save you later".

God cannot lie.

He got three thumbs down, maybe because of his tone, HOWEVER, everything he wrote is accurate. Go to the predestination thread in CI Crisis in the Church. Mortalium's comments are inline with the teachings of predestination.

You know bowler, I have noticed a few poster that want to voice their point but why are they so crass?   If people want others to consider what they say, they must learn to have a little tact.

Not saying I am not guilty, but I know how to apologize when I slip up, with the grace of God.  

BTW bowler, I was not pointing at you, it is just you posted last.    :cool:

Quote from: Jehanne

Positions #1 and #2, by the way, are explicitly espoused by the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire, if only as possibilities but not as certainties.

As if they were any bulwark of orthodoxy.

Well, they are in full communion with their bishop and the Holy See, Vicar of God.  In judging them, you are judging the Church; specifically, your statements are at least materially schismatic, in that you are claiming that a validly consecrated and lawfully recognized bishop of the One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church is administering the Sacraments to public heretics.