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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 22185 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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This is an interesting point given he also says this right after that part:

He who wishes the whole, wishes every part of that whole, and all the means for its attainment.
Ya, it all makes sense as long as you don't lose sight of what he says in #12.

I believe it is either a misquote, or St. Alphonsus is mistaken in the quote:
Quote
Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”
The reason I say that is because Session 6, Chapter 4 says nothing of the sort - which means it is a misquote - whether or not this is intentional who knows? But it is blatantly obvious that that quote is not from Session 6, Chapter 4.

6:4 states that justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof. There is no mention of salvation in that chapter.

But either way, to say as the quote says: "no one is saved without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it," is to say no one is saved without the sacrament. To add "or the desire for it" is to say neither is anyone saved with the desire for the sacrament. 




But either way, to say as the quote says: "no one is saved without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it," is to say no one is saved without the sacrament. To add "or the desire for it" is to say neither is anyone saved with the desire for the sacrament.
Right. It's the same as if one were talking about the Sacrament of matrimony, where there can be no marriage unless there is bridegroom or bride. Can you have marriage with a bridegroom only? Or a bride only? No, both are required. It comes right back to the core issue here: with baptism, you cannot be saved with the laver of regeneration but no desire for it. And vice versa, you cannot be saved with a desire for it but no laver of regeneration.

That's why I postulate that BOD and BOB are both accidental causes of the justification already formally introduced by the actual Sacrament of water baptism. BOD is really nothing more than perfect contrition, and BOB is nothing more than Holy martyrdom. Both have a similar effect as baptism: they justify and remit sin by the merit of their action. But you must have already been baptized for it to have any effect at all.

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Pope Eugene IV, “Cantate Domino,” Council of Florence, ex cathedra:  “No one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

(My emphasis)


Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
with baptism, you cannot be saved with the laver of regeneration but no desire for it.
And this teaching of Trent must also be understood in the context of history and the error they were combating at the time - forced baptisms.  Trent was saying, no, a forced baptism doesn't work.  If a person receives a valid baptism formula, but has no desire, then the sacrament is invalid.

The idea that Trent would spend so little time on a complex matter of BOD, and that it meant to "teach" BOD by way of 1 phrase (not even a complete sentence) is retarded.  Had Trent wanted to address the topic, you'd expect a separate session, or at least a few paragraphs with quotes from Church Fathers, etc.

Also, what sense does it make that Trent would "teach" BOD, but not discuss BOB?  It seems logical that both of these would be discussed together, since most Church Fathers who wrote about them, did so in tandem.

Offline Ladislaus

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He also speaks of "justified" in paragraph 13, so he even seems to contradict himself:

There are some other problems with St. Alphonsus' thinking.  He holds that if someone is saved by BoD, then temporal punishment for sin can still remain.

But that contradicts what Pope Innocent taught on the matter (so, in holding such letter to be de fide), that would make his opinion there heretical.  That Pope claimed that the one individual who he confidently "asserts" is in Heaven (not just that he COULD have been saved), but would go to heaven immediately and without delay.

Also, Trent clearly teaches that initial justification is a rebirth or regeneration, and then defines rebirth/regeneration as a COMPLETE renewal of the individual, wiping out all traces of sin or punishment due to sin.  This was highlighted by the Dimond Brothers, and they are quite correct.

BoD theory is fraught with contradiction and confusion, with wide ranges of theories about what it does, what it doesn't do, etc. etc.  To me that's a clear indication that it's never been taught by the Church.  You cannot believe in something without knowing what that something is.  I can't believe in a phrase "BoD", but can only assent intellectually to various propositions.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
I believe it is either a misquote, or St. Alphonsus is mistaken in the quote:
It's probably a misquote, whether purposefully or accidentally, I can't say.  Most people on this site don't really understand the difference between salvation/justification, so I could see the scenario where a translator would replace "justified" with "saved".