Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 22253 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Right. That's the "position." Better? :laugh1:
I don't get the joke. But that position is Trent's.

I hear what you/the Dimonds are saying, but for the sake or argument, let's say there are those who "desire" baptism but for whatever reason it never happens before they die.  Or the catechumen who is explicit about his/her desire, but doesn't quite make it to baptism.
I'd say that's a possibility, and I think it's similar to what Ss. Thomas and Alphonsus believed about BOD (albeit, they said Purgatory and then onward to Heaven, rather than Limbo). But it remains in the gray area of theological speculation.

Quote
It seems to me that those folks are in at least the same position of the "just" of the OT.  It seems right that they should at least avoid Hell and go to a place where there is no suffering, like a Limbo.  No Beatific Vision, but at least no suffering.

PS, Good to see you DL!
And you're honestly not alone in that belief. If we can take Dante Alighieri for an example of the Medieval/Renaissance Catholic mindset, he himself set up a Limbo of the just for these types of people. The idea of it is completely appealing, but, I can't put my faith into it since there's so much speculation on what happens to these kinds of souls. And there's also the question of the efficacy of the OT rites and their merit towards the Redemptive Sacrifice of Christ versus the lack of such things among infidels. Again, the sin offerings made to God in the Old Covenant only had efficacy and merit because they were to be fulfilled in Christ later. Once the New Testament is established, the Sacraments are the only means to reach justification. If an infidel doesn't have the Sacraments, then no amount of good will and desire can justify them or remit their sins. Confusion and/or denial of this is precisely why an Arch-heretic like Pelagius came about, and why this error still persists to this day.

Again, it's a theological possibility, but hasn't been revealed or defined like the Limbo of the Infants. As for the catechumen argument, why they didn't make it to baptism is a mystery of God. He has His just reason as to why they didn't "make the cut," so to speak. As I said earlier:
Quote
And even for the extremely limited case of the catechumen, there's nothing to say such speculation is at all the reality. As God clearly permitted that catechumen's death prior to baptism, preventing them from receiving the Kingdom, for reasons known only to Him (lack of faith? Abuse of graces? Mercy due to future sins?). As the Church has also clearly defined that catechumens are not members of the Body until they are baptized.



Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter

I asked him repeatedly, repeatedly, if I was correct in believing that he held the view that it was impossible to be saved without the sacrament of baptism, and he never denied that.

Again, if one dies justified, one is saved. You can make as many distinctions between justification and salvation as you want - obviously, you're not saved until you go to heaven, for example - but if you die in a state of justification, you will be saved.


You were alleging contradiction based on a false dichotomy, where both the opposites were strawmen of my position.

My contention regarding the inerrancy of the Magisterium contradicts my contention that BoD is an error.  [Assumed premise:  BoD was taught by the Magisterium.]

I never said that I believed the Magisterium to be absolutely inerrant.

I just said that the Magisterium cannot become so corrupt that it's harmful to souls, certainly not to the point of requiring Catholics in conscience to sever communion with the Holy See and the hierarchy over it.

Then I stated that while I disagree with BoD, I do not characterize it as any kind of error (just a speculation with which i disagree) ... EXCEPT when it's articulated in its extreme Pelagian form that undermines EENS dogma.  And the Church has absolutely never taught that latter expression of the amorphous "BoD".

With all that said, I do not concede your premise that the Magisterium has taught even the non-extreme form of BoD ... but that ventures off into a separate argument altogether which has been tangential to the main point of contention.

Now, while I do not hold the Magisterium to be absolutely inerrant, had the Council of Trent taught Baptism of Desire clearly and set out what must be believed about it, I would of course have immediately accepted that.  I don't believe that an Ecuмenical Council can err at all, and Vatican II could not have taught error had it been legitimate.  What I had in mind was something along the lines of that curious letter by Pope Innocent regarding the "unbaptized priest".

But I reject the assertion that Trent taught a "Baptism of Desire" in a way that includes the proposition that those who die without the Sacrament could be saved (enter the Kingdom and the Beatific Vision) without the Sacrament.  But I will not digress into what we've already been discussing.

I see no contradiction anywhere.

What's strange though is that you started promoting the sedevacantists (who would agree with me in calling your position heretical) as if they were your allies in this contention, and started basically promoting their position that the Magisterium is inerrant, while at the same time believing yourself that it can be corrupted badly ... such as you assert of Vatican II, along with the New Mass.  That seems dishonest.  You were promoting a position that you yourself do not believe to convince me (or others) into believing it, so that your allegation of a contradiction could stand.  :confused:

But, wait.....the catechisms state one can even desire it implicitly.  Are we to believe that the OUM teaches explicit desire or at least implicit desire? Which is the true teaching?

Just another ambiguity....
Trent Catechism does not teach implicit BoD while some later catechisms do teach it. I would say implicit salvation is the one "ambiguity" that needs resolution more than anything, because with "implicit faith" I can accept Unitatis Redintegratio and simply become a conservative NO instead of sedeprivationist. I think the only conclusively heretical things in VII is the ecclesiology promulgated in this one docuмent.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
I don't get the joke. But that position is Trent's.
Never mind, I get it now - but it is still clearly, Trent's teaching.

Since, per Trent, it is infallible that:
1) there is no justification without the the sacrament of baptism (laver of regeneration), 
2) or the desire for the sacrament of baptism, and
3) since we are bound to accept this and Trent's inclusion of John 3:5 as it is written,
4) there is no other means for those unbaptized to obtain justification because Trent infallibly teaches that
1) there is no justification without the the sacrament of baptism (laver of regeneration)

Why is it not clear that #2 condemns the idea of a BOD?