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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 22249 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2022, 02:18:48 PM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on July 13, 2022, 02:12:38 PM

Stubborn,

I've made the argument that the "since the promulgation of the Gospel" means - to distinguish justification under the New Covenant from the Old - that at least an explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism was necessary now, which would differentiate justification under the New Covenant, since the sacrament of baptism wasn't available under the Old.

I know the argument. I was a "Feeneyite" for years.
But, wait.....the catechisms state one can even desire it implicitly.  Are we to believe that the OUM teaches explicit desire or at least implicit desire? Which is the true teaching?

Just another ambiguity....
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2022, 03:11:31 PM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on July 13, 2022, 02:12:38 PM
Stubborn,

I've made the argument that the "since the promulgation of the Gospel" means - to distinguish justification under the New Covenant from the Old - that at least an explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism was necessary now, which would differentiate justification under the New Covenant, since the sacrament of baptism wasn't available under the Old.

I know the argument. I was a "Feeneyite" for years.
The thing is, "since the promulgation of the Gospel" means "from that point in time forward."

So it is from that point in time forward that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament. Which is only to say that, prior to that point in time, justification could be effected without the sacrament.

Being as we are past that point, Trent is teaching that since then and till the end of time, justification cannot be effected without the sacrament. 

Not sure how this is able to be argued lol
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Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2022, 03:14:23 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on July 13, 2022, 02:18:48 PM

But, wait.....the catechisms state one can even desire it implicitly.  Are we to believe that the OUM teaches explicit desire or at least implicit desire? Which is the true teaching?

Just another ambiguity....

Yet again, and for my part I'll leave it unless some specific issue comes up, the "core" teaching remains the same: whether it's an explicit desire, or an implicit desire, both desires, and all catechisms, embrace and recognize the possibility of justification and salvation without the receipt of the sacrament. All of them. 

That is, in my view, the OUM teaching. 
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Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2022, 03:15:54 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on July 13, 2022, 03:11:31 PM
The thing is, "since the promulgation of the Gospel" means "from that point in time forward."

So it is from that point in time forward that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament. Which is only to say that, prior to that point in time, justification could be effected without the sacrament.

Being as we are past that point, Trent is teaching that since then and till the end of time, justification cannot be effected without the sacrament.

Not sure how this is able to be argued lol


Right. That's the "position." Better? :laugh1:
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2022, 03:16:33 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on July 13, 2022, 02:18:48 PM
But, wait.....the catechisms state one can even desire it implicitly.  Are we to believe that the OUM teaches explicit desire or at least implicit desire? Which is the true teaching?

Just another ambiguity....
This is another thing - the catechisms are not the OUM. If they are the UOM, then why not use the NO Catechism? 
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