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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 22248 times)

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Given in that context, I suppose this is where I would place my position along with the Dimonds on justification. As the justification of the OT Patriarchs is wholly different than the justification Fr. Feeney proposes for the unbaptized after the Resurrection, as those under the Old Covenant were still able to attain justification by the merits of the OT sacrifices and rites which were made in the hope of the Redemption to come. So their sin offerings were accepted only insofar as they were united with Christ in the Redemptive Sacrifice of the Cross at the close of the Old Covenant.

This is not possible for the unbaptized because after the establishment of the Church and Sacraments, post-Resurrection, the only means of justification would be by those same Sacraments. They are the only way to be justified, as there is no other way that the unbaptized can receive the remission of actual sins without the laver of regeneration. And we all know that without God's grace, it is impossible for adults to be free from actual sin, so even if they died with a single sin on their soul they would still merit hellfire. Unlike unbaptized infants who cannot commit actual sin, and therefore lose the Beatific Vision, but do not merit hellfire.

So to say they would go to a Limbo not unlike that of the infants, is extremely unlikely.
I hear what you/the Dimonds are saying, but for the sake or argument, let's say there are those who "desire" baptism but for whatever reason it never happens before they die.  Or the catechumen who is explicit about his/her desire, but doesn't quite make it to baptism.

It seems to me that those folks are in at least the same position of the "just" of the OT.  It seems right that they should at least avoid Hell and go to a place where there is no suffering, like a Limbo.  No Beatific Vision, but at least no suffering.

PS, Good to see you DL!

Lad, after reading many of your posts over the years, I always thought that you believed in BOD at some level which is one of the reasons why I thought the accusation that you were in contradiction was unfair at best.

Offline DecemRationis

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Lad, after reading many of your posts over the years, I always thought that you believed in BOD at some level which is one of the reasons why I thought the accusation that you were in contradiction was unfair at best.

I asked him repeatedly, repeatedly, if I was correct in believing that he held the view that it was impossible to be saved without the sacrament of baptism, and he never denied that. 

Again, if one dies justified, one is saved. You can make as many distinctions between justification and salvation as you want - obviously, you're not saved until you go to heaven, for example - but if you die in a state of justification, you will be saved. 


Offline Stubborn

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Again, if one dies justified, one is saved....
...And since the promulgation of the Gospel you cannot die justified without the laver of regeneration. "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration..."

Or to put it another way, you will die unjustified without the laver of regeneration.

Offline DecemRationis

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...And since the promulgation of the Gospel you cannot die justified without the laver of regeneration. "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration..."

Or to put it another way, you will die unjustified without the laver of regeneration.

Stubborn,

I've made the argument that the "since the promulgation of the Gospel" means - to distinguish justification under the New Covenant from the Old - that at least an explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism was necessary now, which would differentiate justification under the New Covenant, since the sacrament of baptism wasn't available under the Old. 

I know the argument. I was a "Feeneyite" for years. 

Offline DecemRationis

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I asked him repeatedly, repeatedly, if I was correct in believing that he held the view that it was impossible to be saved without the sacrament of baptism, and he never denied that.

Again, if one dies justified, one is saved. You can make as many distinctions between justification and salvation as you want - obviously, you're not saved until you go to heaven, for example - but if you die in a state of justification, you will be saved.

That's not accurate. Actually, without the receipt of the sacrament is the issue I addressed with Lad.