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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 16522 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Then you hypocritically cite Fenton, who upheld the infallible safety of the Magisterium, as an authority.  Regardless all he's saying is that the Church's necessity for salvation is revealed (whether in re or in voto).  This means that you must hold that it's least necessary in voto, not that it must be believed that in voto belonging to the Church suffices for salvation.  So you twist the meaning of the quote.  Nor does the quote have anything directly to do with Baptism, but with the Church.



Really? That's your spin. He says entrance into the Church in re or by votum is necessary. Why would he talk about an entrance by votum if entrance in re is necessary?


Quote
The statement that the Church (not merely the “soul” or the “body” of the Church) is necessary for salvation with the necessity of means in such a way that no man can be saved unless he is within the Church either in re or by either an explicit or an implicit votum must be considered as an accurate statement of the revealed teaching on the Church’s necessity for eternal salvation and as the standard terminology of most modern theologians on this subject.



http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecuмenism/members.htm

And the same or only way to enter the Church just turns out to be in re or by votum, just like baptism - what a coincidence, eh? Hey, you of all people should know that baptism is necessary for entering the necessary Church. So to say that this isn't about baptism but about the Church's necessity is a joke.

I'll deal with your "hypocrisy" for quoting Fenton garbage in a bit.

DR



Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline Stubborn

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The only quote here that speaks of justification rather than salvation is the first one, and it mentions "or desire thereof".  So....that is consistent with the usual quote provided to support BOD.  There is no contradiction.  Both say "desire" for the laver of regeneration/the Sacrament can effect justification....but it does not say it effects salvation.

It starts by saying the sacraments are necessary for salvation, a BOD is not a sacrament, so a BOD on it's own is useless. Right from the start of that canon, Trent answers the question for all who think a BOD on it's own is salvific, it is not.

And yes, they both say "or desire thereof" - But the seventh session is talking about the sacrament of Holy Communion for example, (Spiritual communion) or Penance (Perfect Contrition) or whatever because there, they are talking about all of the sacraments.

The decree on justification in the 4th session is speaking strictly of only of the sacrament of baptism. The two "or desire thereof's" are used in different teachings and have two completely different meanings....neither of which teach a BOD.

In saying that justification "cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration" - Trent could have stopped right there since on their own, these words admit that there is no justification without the sacrament. So stopping right there, no sacrament= no justification / no justification = no salvation. So really, nothing more needs to be said in that regard.

But, seemingly to directly condemn a baptism of desire, they added the words; "or the desire thereof." Justification "cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof."  Trent does not say that "justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or without the desire thereof.

They of course then end by confirming the necessity of the sacrament with the Scripture; "as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

The other thing to note, is that by saying "If anyone saith....without them, or without the desire thereof,
men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification....let him be anathema."
This is not teaching that a desire will guarantee the grace of justification, only that justification will not be obtained without it. 
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


Offline DecemRationis

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  Then you hypocritically cite Fenton, who upheld the infallible safety of the Magisterium, as an authority.  

I cited Fenton here for the proposition that an entrance into the Church via a votum was sufficient. You rely on Fenton on infallible saftey, but reject him on BOD. Citing him, an authority you otherwise rely on, against your position is hypocritical? How can you cite Fenton on infallible security as an authority and reject him on BOD without being a hypocrite yourself?

You disagree with Archbishop Lefebvre about BOD, but you've quoted him against R & R when they rely on him repeatedly. Are you a hypocrite as well?

And I've shown you, anyway, how Msgr. Fenton's "infallible safety" related to prudential judgments about things like the Church and state and labor relations, and that the Church could not be "substantially corrupt" or in error on such matters. He'd be shocked that you find the Church could be in error about something like BOD, pertaining to the faith. 
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline Ladislaus

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Yes, what is the difference?  Is there a difference?  I always thought there was, but now I'm doubting myself.

Justification refers to being in a state of sanctifying grace, whereas salvation refers to entering the Kingdom of Heaven (the Beatific Vision).  In this life, we can only be in a state of justification, and it then requires a distinct grace of final perseverance to transition into the state of salvation.

So we speak of the Old Testament "just", where they were in a state of sanctifying grace and yet were not yet saved and had not entered Heaven.

Now, the Dimonds argue that justification is impossible without the Sacrament of Baptism.

Fr. Feeney's position is that it's possible, but doesn't suffice for final salvation, and they make an analogy between this state and that of the OT just or justified.  He did not believe, as a practical matter, that God would allow anyone who died justified not to be saved, that He somehow, even if in a manner unknown to us, made sure that all His elect received the Sacrament of Baptism and thus would be saved.  When asked the hypothetical of, if this were possible, what would happen to such a soul, and he responded I don't know.  I hold that they would enter a place like Limbo if they also died without any debt or stain of actual sin (as would be the case with an unbaptized martyr) or else in a Limbo-like state with lesser degrees of suffering that Hell proper.  But that's a side point.

BoDers hold that all those who die in a state of justification attain Heaven, even if they lack the Sacramental character.  I hold that the character is essential for entering into the supernatural life of God, that it's the faculty that permits us to see God as He is (a capacity that we lack by nature), and also to be recognized God as His adopted sons (bearing as we would the character of His Son in our souls).  I do not believe that the Beatific Vision is possible without the Sacramental character, which is essentially the "supernatural faculty" in our souls.

Offline Ladislaus

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DR asserted that we must believe in "BoD" ... regardless of the fact that the Magisterium has never clarified what "BoD" means.

But Father Feeney does believe in a "BoD", a desire that could bring about the one effect of the Sacrament, a remission of sin and putting the soul into a state of justification.  He simply does not believe that BoD can have the effect of allowing a soul to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and the Beatific Vision.

I agree with that.  So I guess I believe in "BoD" as well.  I just don't believe the same thing about it that everyone assumes of BoD.  And nowhere has the Magisterium clarified that I must believe that this "BoD" suffices to allow souls to enter Heaven.

Where has this opinion about "BoD" been condemned by the Magisterium?

So, I generally do not qualify it when I said that "I don't believe in BoD", whereas perhaps I should say "I believe in BoD" ... but my understanding of it differs from the popular perception of it.

Some say BoD is just for catechumens.  Some say it can be work for infidels.  Some (like Pope Innocent) say that it remits all sin and punishment due to sin, where as some (St. Alphonsus) say it doesn't.  Some say it suffices for salvation.  Father Feeney did not, and I do not.


Offline ElwinRansom1970

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DR asserted that we must believe in "BoD" ... regardless of the fact that the Magisterium has never clarified what "BoD" means.

But Father Feeney does believe in a "BoD", a desire that could bring about the one effect of the Sacrament, a remission of sin and putting the soul into a state of justification.  He simply does not believe that BoD can have the effect of allowing a soul to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and the Beatific Vision.

I agree with that.  So I guess I believe in "BoD" as well.  I just don't believe the same thing about it that everyone assumes of BoD.  And nowhere has the Magisterium clarified that I must believe that this "BoD" suffices to allow souls to enter Heaven.

Where has this opinion about "BoD" been condemned by the Magisterium?

So, I generally do not qualify it when I said that "I don't believe in BoD", whereas perhaps I should say "I believe in BoD" ... but my understanding of it differs from the popular perception of it.
Same here. I would add that BoD cannot be vicariously willed for another person. I am hearing this nonsense more frequently amongst those who desire the baptism of miscarried or aborted infants.
"I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Offline Ladislaus

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Same here. I would add that BoD cannot be vicariously willed for another person. I am hearing this nonsense more frequently amongst those who desire the baptism of miscarried or aborted infants.

Yes, I have heard that one as well.  That would somehow give it an ex opere operato effect to the votum vis-a-vis the infant.  Now, the requisite intention to be baptized is in fact supplied for by the parents/godparents at the reception of Baptism, but that's completely different since it's the Sacrament that effects the justification, not the vicarious intention.

Cajetan floated this idea, but St. Pius V ordered it expunged from his commentary.

Offline DigitalLogos

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Justification refers to being in a state of sanctifying grace, whereas salvation refers to entering the Kingdom of Heaven (the Beatific Vision).  In this life, we can only be in a state of justification, and it then requires a distinct grace of final perseverance to transition into the state of salvation.

So we speak of the Old Testament "just", where they were in a state of sanctifying grace and yet were not yet saved and had not entered Heaven.

Now, the Dimonds argue that justification is impossible without the Sacrament of Baptism.

Fr. Feeney's position is that it's possible, but doesn't suffice for final salvation, and they make an analogy between this state and that of the OT just or justified.  He did not believe, as a practical matter, that God would allow anyone who died justified not to be saved, that He somehow, even if in a manner unknown to us, made sure that all His elect received the Sacrament of Baptism and thus would be saved.  When asked the hypothetical of, if this were possible, what would happen to such a soul, and he responded I don't know.  I hold that they would enter a place like Limbo if they also died without any debt or stain of actual sin (as would be the case with an unbaptized martyr) or else in a Limbo-like state with lesser degrees of suffering that Hell proper.  But that's a side point.
Given in that context, I suppose this is where I would place my position along with the Dimonds on justification. As the justification of the OT Patriarchs is wholly different than the justification Fr. Feeney proposes for the unbaptized after the Resurrection, as those under the Old Covenant were still able to attain justification by the merits of the OT sacrifices and rites which were made in the hope of the Redemption to come. So their sin offerings were accepted only insofar as they were united with Christ in the Redemptive Sacrifice of the Cross at the close of the Old Covenant.

This is not possible for the unbaptized because after the establishment of the Church and Sacraments, post-Resurrection, the only means of justification would be by those same Sacraments. They are the only way to be justified, as there is no other way that the unbaptized can receive the remission of actual sins without the laver of regeneration. And we all know that without God's grace, it is impossible for adults to be free from actual sin, so even if they died with a single sin on their soul they would still merit hellfire. Unlike unbaptized infants who cannot commit actual sin, and therefore lose the Beatific Vision, but do not merit hellfire.

So to say they would go to a Limbo not unlike that of the infants, is extremely unlikely.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


Offline Ladislaus

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Given in that context, I suppose this is where I would place my position along with the Dimonds on justification. As the justification of the OT Patriarchs is wholly different than the justification Fr. Feeney proposes for the unbaptized after the Resurrection, as those under the Old Covenant were still able to attain justification by the merits of the OT sacrifices and rites which were made in the hope of the Redemption to come. So their sin offerings were accepted only insofar as they were united with Christ in the Redemptive Sacrifice of the Cross at the close of the Old Covenant.

This is not possible for the unbaptized because after the establishment of the Church and Sacraments, post-Resurrection, the only means of justification would be by those same Sacraments. They are the only way to be justified, as there is no other way that the unbaptized can receive the remission of actual sins without the laver of regeneration. And we all know that without God's grace, it is impossible for adults to be free from actual sin, so even if they died with a single sin on their soul they would still merit hellfire. Unlike unbaptized infants who cannot commit actual sin, and therefore lose the Beatific Vision, but do not merit hellfire.

I think this point could be debated.  St. Ambrose, as I mentioned, posited a washing without the crowning, for both unbaptized martyrs and also for those like Valentinian.  But all these open questions serve again to demonstrate that no "Baptism of Desire" in the sense of it having the effect of sufficing for salvation without the Sacrament of Baptism has ever been taught by the Church.

Offline DigitalLogos

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I think this point could be debated.  St. Ambrose, as I mentioned, posited a washing without the crowning, for both unbaptized martyrs and also for those like Valentinian.  But all these open questions serve again to demonstrate that no "Baptism of Desire" in the sense of it having the effect of sufficing for salvation without the Sacrament of Baptism has ever been taught by the Church.
And therein lies the problem. There are no true shepherds these days (in the sense of teaching authority), so many are being led astray by opinions (no matter how well-informed) rather than the bedrock of Church teaching.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline 2Vermont

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Given in that context, I suppose this is where I would place my position along with the Dimonds on justification. As the justification of the OT Patriarchs is wholly different than the justification Fr. Feeney proposes for the unbaptized after the Resurrection, as those under the Old Covenant were still able to attain justification by the merits of the OT sacrifices and rites which were made in the hope of the Redemption to come. So their sin offerings were accepted only insofar as they were united with Christ in the Redemptive Sacrifice of the Cross at the close of the Old Covenant.

This is not possible for the unbaptized because after the establishment of the Church and Sacraments, post-Resurrection, the only means of justification would be by those same Sacraments. They are the only way to be justified, as there is no other way that the unbaptized can receive the remission of actual sins without the laver of regeneration. And we all know that without God's grace, it is impossible for adults to be free from actual sin, so even if they died with a single sin on their soul they would still merit hellfire. Unlike unbaptized infants who cannot commit actual sin, and therefore lose the Beatific Vision, but do not merit hellfire.

So to say they would go to a Limbo not unlike that of the infants, is extremely unlikely.
I hear what you/the Dimonds are saying, but for the sake or argument, let's say there are those who "desire" baptism but for whatever reason it never happens before they die.  Or the catechumen who is explicit about his/her desire, but doesn't quite make it to baptism.

It seems to me that those folks are in at least the same position of the "just" of the OT.  It seems right that they should at least avoid Hell and go to a place where there is no suffering, like a Limbo.  No Beatific Vision, but at least no suffering.

PS, Good to see you DL!

Lad, after reading many of your posts over the years, I always thought that you believed in BOD at some level which is one of the reasons why I thought the accusation that you were in contradiction was unfair at best.


Offline DecemRationis

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Lad, after reading many of your posts over the years, I always thought that you believed in BOD at some level which is one of the reasons why I thought the accusation that you were in contradiction was unfair at best.

I asked him repeatedly, repeatedly, if I was correct in believing that he held the view that it was impossible to be saved without the sacrament of baptism, and he never denied that. 

Again, if one dies justified, one is saved. You can make as many distinctions between justification and salvation as you want - obviously, you're not saved until you go to heaven, for example - but if you die in a state of justification, you will be saved. 
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline Stubborn

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Again, if one dies justified, one is saved....
...And since the promulgation of the Gospel you cannot die justified without the laver of regeneration. "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration..."

Or to put it another way, you will die unjustified without the laver of regeneration.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline DecemRationis

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...And since the promulgation of the Gospel you cannot die justified without the laver of regeneration. "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration..."

Or to put it another way, you will die unjustified without the laver of regeneration.

Stubborn,

I've made the argument that the "since the promulgation of the Gospel" means - to distinguish justification under the New Covenant from the Old - that at least an explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism was necessary now, which would differentiate justification under the New Covenant, since the sacrament of baptism wasn't available under the Old. 

I know the argument. I was a "Feeneyite" for years. 
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline DecemRationis

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I asked him repeatedly, repeatedly, if I was correct in believing that he held the view that it was impossible to be saved without the sacrament of baptism, and he never denied that.

Again, if one dies justified, one is saved. You can make as many distinctions between justification and salvation as you want - obviously, you're not saved until you go to heaven, for example - but if you die in a state of justification, you will be saved.

That's not accurate. Actually, without the receipt of the sacrament is the issue I addressed with Lad.
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.