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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 16535 times)

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Offline augustineeens

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The only possibility for BOD or BOB I see is just as a notion of the justification of souls who have already received baptism. A baptized Catholic in a state of sin shedding his blood for Christ would constitute a "Baptism of blood" as the act itself removes all sin and they go straight to heaven. With the "baptism of desire" being basically an act of perfect contrition.

It's as was already pointed out, there is only one baptism per the teaching of Scripture, as well as four Councils; not three as some try to stretch BOD and BOB into two baptisms in their own right, when they are just accidents of the justification already received by the baptized. If you aren't baptized by water and the Holy Ghost (John 3:5), you aren't a member of the Body, and therefore, will not be saved.

So this idea of Fr. Feeney of the unbaptized being justified but unable to enter heaven is plausible, but also is not really different than the "Dimondite" thesis that all unbaptized go to hell since Limbo is a part of hell minus the torment of fire.
It's a pious belief held by many that when someone makes religious vows, they receive a second baptism. It could be the same for martyrs. Yes, as you say, that would fall under perfect contrition, as defined explicitly at Trent. BOD has never been defined and never will be. The Holy Ghost protected the Church from doing that.

Offline Ladislaus

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Indeed, there's one reference in the Church Fathers to a "Baptism of Blood" ... for a priest (who was already baptized), so it's not always clear what is meant.  Again, the looser use of "baptism" refers to the one effect of Baptism, the remission of sins.  But it's clear that "Baptism of Blood" nor "Baptism of Water" does not confer the Sacramental character, or effect the "crowning" that would enable one to enter the Kingdom.  That distinction between the two effects of Baptism is very clear in the Church Fathers.

Here's Pope St. Siricius (with my translation):

Quote
Sicut sacram ergo paschalem reverentiam in nullo dicimus esse minuendam, ita infantibus qui necdum loqui poterunt per aetatem vel his, quibus in qualibet necessitate opus fuerit sacra unda baptismatis, omni volumus celeritate succurri, ne ad nostrarum perniciem tendat animarum, si negato desiderantibus fonte salutari exiens unusquisque de saeculo et regnum perdat et vitam.

So while we say that the reverence for Easter [my comment:  when Baptisms were normally done] should not be diminished in any way, so it is our will that, in the case of infants who can not yet speak on account of their age, or in the case of those would have any kind of urgent need for the waters of Baptism, that they be given succor with all haste, lest it endanger our souls, were each and every one leaving this world to forfeit both the kingdom and life by denying the Saving Font to those desiring it.

So he's teaching here that "each and every one" who departs from this life desiring the saving font would forfeit the Kingdom and life (a Latin rhetorical expression meaning "the life of the Kingdom") if he doesn't receive the Sacrament before leaving this life.


Offline Ladislaus

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So, people claim that Catholics MUST believe in BoD.  OK.  Well, what must I believe about it?  Apart from the fact that the expression "Baptism of Desire" appears absolutely nowhere in the Catholic Magisterium, there appears to be a different understanding or version of "BoD" for each person that believes in it.  Is it just for catechumens?  Does it "work" for infidels?  I've even heard some apply the term to validly-baptized Protestants.  It's become codeword for "sincerity saves".  Apart from a passing mention of a phrase votum in Trent, something without which justification cannot take place, the closest thing comes from a letter of Pope Innocent II/III (can't remember which) to a bishop in France.  In it he said he was relying on the "authority of Augustine and Ambrose" (mistakenly IMO) to believe that an unbaptized priest (whatever that means) went straight to Heaven "without delay".  St. Alphonsus used this letter to assert that BoD was de fide.  That was before VI had defined the notes of infallibility.  This was clearly a pope opining about a matter and sending a letter to some bishop, and was in no way teaching the Universal Church with HIS authority (but was relying on his understanding of Augustine and Ambrose).  In any case, in a very similar letter to a bishop by Innocent III (I believe ... I get II and II confused sometimes from memory), that pope opined that the consecration at Mass was valid if the priest only THOUGHT the words of consecration.  St. Thomas rightly took him to task over that.  But, getting to my point, St. Alphonsus held the letter about the "unbaptized priest" to have dogmatic authority -- and yet CONTRADICTED the pope.  St. Alphonsus claimed that with BoD (unlike BoB), temporal punishment remains in the next life.  But that Pope Innocent letter stated that such a one would go to Heaven immediately and without delay.  So, was St. Alphonsus a heretic?

BoD is fraught with uncertainty, lack of clarity, and a variety of interpretations.  That is prima facie evidence that it's not de fide or even really TAUGHT as such.  In order to believe something, you have to know what you're required to believe about it.

BoD is NOT something that has been revealed and therefore not even definable as Catholic dogma.  More Church Fathers rejected the notion explicitly than who tentatively and temporarily opined in its favor.  So there's no dogmatic consensus among the Church Fathers.  Nor has anyone every made an argument to prove that BoD necessarily follows from other revealed truth.  Without either one of those conditions, it's clear that BoD is not revealed and therefore cannot become de fide.

It's clearly nothing more than a piece of theological speculation that the Church has permitted.  And, in and of itself, if applied to, say, a catechumen who has all the other proper dispositions to receive the Sacrament, it does no harm to Catholic ecclesiology or soteriology.  Where it becomes a real problem is where it gets extended even to infidels.  There's no evidence that any top tier Catholic source (pope, Doctor, or saint) ever believed that BoD could apply except to the case of a catechumen.  Holy Office rejected the notion that lack of belief in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for supernatural faith and therefore for salvation.  St. Robert ONLY applied it to catechumens, asking "Whether catechumens who [died before receiving the Sacrament] could be saved."  Pope Innocent was talking about a "priest" who had not been baptized (again, not sure how that's possible).

Backing for BoD is incredibly weak, and 99% of its proponents don't care about the isolated case of a catechumen who may have died before Baptism.  What they care about is using it as a weapon to undermine EENS and to use it as the mechanism by which non-Catholics (even infidels) can be saved.

Offline DigitalLogos

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It's clearly nothing more than a piece of theological speculation that the Church has permitted.  And, in and of itself, if applied to, say, a catechumen who has all the other proper dispositions to receive the Sacrament, it does no harm to Catholic ecclesiology or soteriology.  Where it becomes a real problem is where it gets extended even to infidels.  There's no evidence that any top tier Catholic source (pope, Doctor, or saint) ever believed that BoD could apply except to the case of a catechumen.  Holy Office rejected the notion that lack of belief in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for supernatural faith and therefore for salvation.  St. Robert ONLY applied it to catechumens, asking "Whether catechumens who [died before receiving the Sacrament] could be saved."  Pope Innocent was talking about a "priest" who had not been baptized (again, not sure how that's possible).

Backing for BoD is incredibly weak, and 99% of its proponents don't care about the isolated case of a catechumen who may have died before Baptism.  What they care about is using it as a weapon to undermine EENS and to use it as the mechanism by which non-Catholics (even infidels) can be saved.
I believe in BOD only insofar as it is just another term for an act of perfect contrition, as I said, which is something only the baptized can do for justification.

This idea that you can receive the grace of a Sacrament without the material aspect of the Sacrament completely undermines sacramental theology. And reduces it to something more akin to Protestant theology where one can receive justification by faith alone. If I can be "baptized" through a desire for it, even if I'm an infidel, then what purpose is there for Our Lord and His Church clearly defining its matter as water and its form as "I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"? Further, does not the validity of the Sacrament itself require that the recipient have a desire for it in the first place? The words of the Council of Trent very clearly state this, even though many misunderstand that the proposition of "or" (aut) means "and" in this particular instance.

If "desire" is all that is required, then one could effectively baptize themselves, which is ridiculous and not supported by any Catholic teaching or proof of Scripture.

And even for the extremely limited case of the catechumen, there's nothing to say such speculation is at all the reality. As God clearly permitted that catechumen's death prior to baptism, preventing them from receiving the Kingdom, for reasons known only to Him (lack of faith? Abuse of graces? Mercy due to future sins?). As the Church has also clearly defined that catechumens are not members of the Body until they are baptized. So basing one's belief on such theological speculation is reckless and dangerous to the Faith, as we clearly see today with the semi-Pelagian "invincible ignorance" heresy.
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Ladislaus

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Yes, the extension of BoD to infidels is nothing short of Pelagianism and completely guts the teaching of Trent regarding the necessity of the Sacraments and how they work.  Even when applied to catechumens, it's a bit of a stretch, which is why I don't believe in the commonly-held notion of BoD even in that case.  And I have a big problem with reducing the character of Baptism to relative insignificance.  With BoD theory, it's reduced to a Sacramental non-repeatability marker, or a badge of some kind that some people in Heaven have and others don't.  I'd be more amenable with a theory of BoD that held that the souls also received the Sacramental character (even if in extraordinary manner).  But no BoD proponent holds that, and the result is the reduction of the Sacramental character to meaninglessness or triviality.


Offline DecemRationis

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So, people claim that Catholics MUST believe in BoD.  OK.  Well, what must I believe about it? 

Lad,

Baptism of desire is a shorthand, a mere phrase for a concept taught by the Magisterium since Trent at least for sure (so I say it's OUM), what appears in the Council of Trent and in the Catechism of Trent, and probably every catechism since then (English, Irish, American, Italian, etc.) - although you, against the moral unanimity and consensus of every pope, bishop and theologian since Trent, reject the teaching and deny it's in the Council. 

Here's the concept or teaching, which Msgr. Fenton says is "the revealed teaching" - it's this which you must believe per Fenton as a teaching of the OUM (and arguably - I say that for your sake - more solemnly taught at the Council of Trent - although only you and other Feeneyites argue it):

Quote

The statement that the Church (not merely the “soul” or the “body” of the Church) is necessary for salvation with the necessity of means in such a way that no man can be saved unless he is within the Church either in re or by either an explicit or an implicit votum must be considered as an accurate statement of the revealed teaching on the Church’s necessity for eternal salvation and as the standard terminology of most modern theologians on this subject.



http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecuмenism/members.htm

Tell me if I am mistaken, but you reject the concept and say one must be in the Church in re and receive the sacrament of baptism to be saved?

Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline 2Vermont

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Lad,

Baptism of desire is a shorthand, a mere phrase for a concept taught by the Magisterium since Trent at least for sure (so I say it's OUM), what appears in the Council of Trent and in the Catechism of Trent, and probably every catechism since then (English, Irish, American, Italian, etc.) - although you, against the moral unanimity and consensus of every pope, bishop and theologian since Trent, reject the teaching and deny it's in the Council. 

The Council of Trent mentions justification, not salvation.  

Also, you seem to be completely ignoring any contradictions in/between catechisms mentioned right in this thread.  Why?

Offline Stubborn

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What I don't fully understand is how after all this time, faithful Catholic people are able to convince themselves that Trent left a loop hole, or was not clear, or could contradict Scripture, or heaven help us, taught a BOD.

On Justification, Trent clearly states that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament. What else needs to be said? And if in the future a council defines it again, what words would they use to clarify that which is already clear?


 
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


Offline Ladislaus

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Baptism of desire is a shorthand, a mere phrase for a concept taught by the Magisterium since Trent at least for sure (so I say it's OUM), what appears in the Council of Trent and in the Catechism of Trent, and probably every catechism since then (English, Irish, American, Italian, etc.) - although you, against the moral unanimity and consensus of every pope, bishop and theologian since Trent, reject the teaching and deny it's in the Council. 

Nonsense.  In the Magisterium, there's a reference in Trent to the votum for Baptism being required, being necessary for justification, with lack of clarity about whether it suffices for justification.  "Cannot happen without" refers to a necessary condition, but Trent did not clarify whether it's sufficient.  And no indication about whether it suffices for salvation ... and those two terms are clearly distinguished by theologians active around the time of Trent (and even has its roots in Sacred Scripture, St. Paul).

Catechism of Trent does not teach "BoD" either.  It simply states that Baptism may be deferred in adults (in favor of their being properly prepared) because there isn't the same dangers for them as for instants on account of their desire/intention to receive Baptism.  This does NOT state that if an adult were to die before Baptism, that intention would suffice for their salvation.  That is totally read into the Catechism by the BoDers.

That's blatant lie that there's "moral unanimity and consensus of every pope."  You can literally count on one hand where the subject is raised by any Pope.  Every pope, my posterior.

And this is rich, coming from you.  Every pope, bishop, and theologian for the past 60 years has upheld and supported the teachings of Vatican II and have upheld the acceptability of the NOM.

Offline Ladislaus

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You still fail to cite where the Magisterium defines what must be believed about BoD, other than that there's this votum somehow related to justification.  Then you hypocritically cite Fenton, who upheld the infallible safety of the Magisterium, as an authority.  Regardless all he's saying is that the Church's necessity for salvation is revealed (whether in re or in voto).  This means that you must hold that it's least necessary in voto, not that it must be believed that in voto belonging to the Church suffices for salvation.  So you twist the meaning of the quote.  Nor does the quote have anything directly to do with Baptism, but with the Church.

I believe that some of the criteria for membership in the Church can be achieved in voto.  So, for instance, one does not lose membership in the Church for failing to be subject to the Supreme Pontiff during, say, a time of sede vacante, or if one has been unjustly excommunicated.  I also believe that someone can belong to the Church in voto in the sense that if you have someone converted by a missionary who believes in the basic mysteries of the faith and who is baptized, even if he had not gotten to explicitly believing in the Church and submitting to the Church's teaching authority, that intention could be there in voto.

That some of the effects of Baptism can be had in voto, I agree.  That all of the effects of Baptism can be had in voto, I deny.  In fact, EVERYBODY denies that the character of Baptism can be had in voto.  And MEMBERSHIP in the Church is not achieved without the Sacrament.

So this reduces to a discussion of what are the ramifications of not having the Sacramental character and not having membership in the Church.

Offline Lois Einhorn

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Regarding desire mentioned in the Council of Trent, the book, Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent , is the actual Council of Trent - not a catechism based on it - but the actual written decrees, the actual record.

- Original text with English translation by Rev. H. J. Schroeder, O.P., from Refuge of Sinners Publishing at www.JoyfulCatholic.com

It explains that "baptism of desire" takes effect at the pouring of the water - at the sacrament itself.

Priest:  "N., do you wish to be baptized?"
N.:  "I do" (or the Godparents for an infant)
- the catechumen has to indicate the will or wish to be baptized, then the sacrament's form and matter follow.
LACES OUT !!!


Offline 2Vermont

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What I don't fully understand is how after all this time, faithful Catholic people are able to convince themselves that Trent left a loop hole, or was not clear, or could contradict Scripture, or heaven help us, taught a BOD.

On Justification, Trent clearly states that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament. What else needs to be said? And if in the future a council defines it again, what words would they use to clarify that which is already clear?


 
Stubborn, I could be wrong about justification.  It seemed to me that the usual quote used to support BOD mentions the word justification, not salvation.  That was what I was referring to in my post above.

Where does Trent say justification can not be effected without the Sacrament?  Does it say justification or does it say Baptism is necessary for Salvation? There is a distinction between those two things, is there not?

Offline Stubborn

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Stubborn, I could be wrong about justification.  It seemed to me that the usual quote used to support BOD mentions the word justification, not salvation.  That was what I was referring to in my post above.

Where does Trent say justification can not be effected without the Sacrament?  Does it say justification or does it say Baptism is necessary for Salvation? There is a distinction between those two things, is there not?
Session 6, (Decree on Justification)
Chapter 4

"By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being
a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state
of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus
Christ, our Saviour. And this translation [to justification], since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot
be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written;
unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the
Kingdom of God."

Then in the 7th session, (On the Sacraments in general) Trent anathematizes whoever says the sacraments are not necessary for salvation....

Canon 4
If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary

unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof,
men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the
sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Also 7th session, (On the Sacrament of Baptism)

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for
baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our
Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him
be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto
salvation; let him be anathema.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline 2Vermont

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Session 6, (Decree on Justification)
Chapter 4

"By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being
a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state
of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus
Christ, our Saviour. And this translation [to justification], since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot
be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written;
unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the
Kingdom of God."

Then in the 7th session, (On the Sacraments in general) Trent anathematizes whoever says the sacraments are not necessary for salvation....

Canon 4
If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary

unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof,
men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the
sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Also 7th session, (On the Sacrament of Baptism)

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for
baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our
Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him
be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto
salvation; let him be anathema.
The only quote here that speaks of justification rather than salvation is the first one, and it mentions "or desire thereof".  So....that is consistent with the usual quote provided to support BOD.  There is no contradiction.  Both say "desire" for the laver of regeneration/the Sacrament can effect justification....but it does not say it effects salvation.

Offline 2Vermont

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Nonsense.  In the Magisterium, there's a reference in Trent to the votum for Baptism being required, being necessary for justification, with lack of clarity about whether it suffices for justification.  "Cannot happen without" refers to a necessary condition, but Trent did not clarify whether it's sufficient.  And no indication about whether it suffices for salvation ... and those two terms are clearly distinguished by theologians active around the time of Trent (and even has its roots in Sacred Scripture, St. Paul).

Yes, what is the difference?  Is there a difference?  I always thought there was, but now I'm doubting myself.