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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 22240 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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I don't know which catechism you read, but I did a quick search for the Baltimore Catechism and found this question. Is this what you mean?



It doesn't say "three baptisms". It says "three kinds of baptism". Note the word "baptism" in the singular.
Since "one baptism" means "One kind of baptism", why doesn't "Three kinds of baptisms" mean three baptisms?



Probably they are implying the mentally retarded who grow up to physical maturity without ever achieving the use of reason.
Maybe.  Bit that's not certain.  That's why the Church will need to clarify due to confusion among good willed Catholics...not to mention the complete modernization/bastardization of it in recent decades.  


Offline Ladislaus

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"Ladislausian Soteriology"???! So you propound a new theological idea and name it after yourself ... don't you see that this puts you in company that you, um, probably don't want to be in? Can't you just read the catechism book and accept it with a simple, childlike faith?

It was meant as nothing more than a qualification that this view on soteriology differs somewhat from both Father Feeney's and that of the Dimond Brothers, or others.  So, as opposed to "Feeneyite" and "Dimondite".  I know that a lot of people lump them both into the same "Feeneyite" category, there there's a major difference between them.  Father Feeney believes in a votum that can provide justification but not salvation.  Dimonds reject that such can even be justified.

It's unique in that I posit that souls other than unbaptized infants could end up in Limbo.  It's rooted in the Church Fathers and explains well a passage in St. Ambrose that others have written off as a contradiction (both St. Benedict Center and the Dimonds wrote it off and remarked that it would appear to be a contradiction).

Dimonds would hold that they all go to hell.

Father Feeney would hold that the justified would in fact be baptized somehow (even if miraculously and unknown to others), but he answers the hypothetical in case they weren't with "I don't know."

I'm filling in the "I don't know" with my opinion based on all the evidence I put in that thread.

Offline Ladislaus

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Probably they are implying the mentally retarded who grow up to physical maturity without ever achieving the use of reason.

Probably, infants and those LIKE infants (aka those who are mentally retarded).  I recall, however, that St. Benedict Center made more of this passage than that.

At one point St. Ambrose, in his (in)famous oration about Valentinian, posits that Valentinian may have been "washed" by his "piety and desire".  Elsewhere, however, St. Ambrose states that not even a good catechumen can be saved if he dies before receiving the Sacrament.  So this has puzzled many readers, written off as a contradiction or change of opinion.

But elsewhere in the Valentinian oration, he states that not even the martyrs are crowned even if they are "washed".  So St. Ambrose is distinguishing between "washing" and "crowning" ... and these two reflect the two different effects of the Sacrament of Baptism -- 1) remission of sin and 2) reception of the Baptismal character.  So St. Ambrose holds that unbaptized martyrs (he did seem to believe there were some, while Father Feeney does not think so) receive a washing, a remission of sin, but not a "crowning".  That "crowning" (referred to by other Fathers as glory, and as making one fit for the "kingdom").  So this too is consistent with a distinction between justification (remission of sin) and salvation (ability to enter the beatific vision, i.e. enter the Kingdom).  Pope St. Siricius dogmatically taught that NO ONE can enter the Kingdom without the Sacrament even if they desired to receive it.

There were theologians at the time of Trent who made the same distinction, holding, for instance, that infidels could be justified but not saved.  So the missing piece is, what happens in the next life to those who have been justified but not saved?

The only possibility for BOD or BOB I see is just as a notion of the justification of souls who have already received baptism. A baptized Catholic in a state of sin shedding his blood for Christ would constitute a "Baptism of blood" as the act itself removes all sin and they go straight to heaven. With the "baptism of desire" being basically an act of perfect contrition.

It's as was already pointed out, there is only one baptism per the teaching of Scripture, as well as four Councils; not three as some try to stretch BOD and BOB into two baptisms in their own right, when they are just accidents of the justification already received by the baptized. If you aren't baptized by water and the Holy Ghost (John 3:5), you aren't a member of the Body, and therefore, will not be saved.

So this idea of Fr. Feeney of the unbaptized being justified but unable to enter heaven is plausible, but also is not really different than the "Dimondite" thesis that all unbaptized go to hell since Limbo is a part of hell minus the torment of fire.