Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 11

Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 16551 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2Vermont

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11371
  • Reputation: +6345/-1104
  • Gender: Female
Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2022, 08:23:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 12, 2022, 07:54:20 AM
    ya, I guess so lol
    I deserve a :facepalm: for that.

    I was more trying to point out that he was mistaken in that regard.
    But was he? [Lad: I was wrong, it was the Baltimore Catechism, not the Pius X Catechism that I saw the reference]:


    Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?

    A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven
    Logged

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4065
    • Reputation: +2404/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #16 on: July 12, 2022, 09:09:40 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 12, 2022, 07:23:52 AM
    I've actually articulated the same type of position which makes sense of what otherwise would appear to be a contradiction in St. Ambrose.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/patristic-support-for-ladilausian-soteriology/
    "Ladislausian Soteriology"???! So you propound a new theological idea and name it after yourself ... don't you see that this puts you in company that you, um, probably don't want to be in? Can't you just read the catechism book and accept it with a simple, childlike faith?
    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11371
    • Reputation: +6345/-1104
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #17 on: July 12, 2022, 09:17:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Yeti on July 12, 2022, 09:09:40 AM
    "Ladislausian Soteriology"???! So you propound a new theological idea and name it after yourself ... don't you see that this puts you in company that you, um, probably don't want to be in? Can't you just read the catechism book and accept it with a simple, childlike faith?
    But are the catechisms really clear on this? One minute it seems to say that one can be saved via BOD, and other times it says that one cannot enter Heaven without baptism [and water baptism is implied...see my previous post].

    I believe that one day [God willing], the Church will have to definitively teach BOD solemnly through its extraordinary magisterium, so the Church teaching is clear. 
    Logged

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14692
    • Reputation: +6056/-904
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #18 on: July 12, 2022, 09:23:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 12, 2022, 08:23:45 AM
    But was he? [Lad: I was wrong, it was the Baltimore Catechism, not the Pius X Catechism that I saw the reference]:


    Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?

    A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven
    Later on in the book, he says:
    "Baptism is necessary for salvation by a necessity of both means and precept for adults, who are not yet baptized.
    Unbaptized infants who die go to Limbo. Notice, they do not go to Hell. Also notice, they do not go to Heaven.
    Unbaptized adults who die go to Hell. Notice they do not go either to Limbo or to Heaven."

    And

    "There is only one Baptism. And every baptized baby is a subject of our Holy Father the Pope. (When you go to Heaven, most of the Americans you meet will be under seven years of age!)"
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4065
    • Reputation: +2404/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #19 on: July 12, 2022, 09:24:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 12, 2022, 09:17:40 AM
    But are the catechisms really clear on this? One minute it seems to say that one can be saved via BOD, and other times it says that one cannot enter Heaven without baptism [and water baptism is implied...see my previous post].

    I believe that one day [God willing], the Church will have to definitively teach BOD solemnly through its extraordinary magisterium, so the Church teaching is clear.
    What you quoted was talking about unbaptized infants and how they go to Limbo if they die. Baptism of Desire only applies to adults, since only adults (i.e., those with the use of reason) can desire anything.
    Logged

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14692
    • Reputation: +6056/-904
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #20 on: July 12, 2022, 09:26:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 12, 2022, 09:17:40 AM
    But are the catechisms really clear on this? One minute it seems to say that one can be saved via BOD, and other times it says that one cannot enter Heaven without baptism [and water baptism is implied...see my previous post].
    Yes, and Scripture (Eph 4:5) teaches there is only one baptism and the catechism teaches there are three.
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11371
    • Reputation: +6345/-1104
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #21 on: July 12, 2022, 09:29:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 12, 2022, 09:23:46 AM
    Later on in the book, he says:
    "Baptism is necessary for salvation by a necessity of both means and precept for adults, who are not yet baptized.
    Unbaptized infants who die go to Limbo. Notice, they do not go to Hell. Also notice, they do not go to Heaven.
    Unbaptized adults who die go to Hell. Notice they do not go either to Limbo or to Heaven."

    And

    "There is only one Baptism. And every baptized baby is a subject of our Holy Father the Pope. (When you go to Heaven, most of the Americans you meet will be under seven years of age!)"
    He probably states this because the Balt Catechism states that unbaptized persons without actual sin go to Limbo.  It's rare that an unbaptized adult would die without actual sin.

    Having said that the BC also states that it is "common opinion" that they go to Limbo, but that is all.  Father Feeney had a different opinion.
    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11371
    • Reputation: +6345/-1104
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #22 on: July 12, 2022, 09:30:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Yeti on July 12, 2022, 09:24:58 AM
    What you quoted was talking about unbaptized infants and how they go to Limbo if they die. Baptism of Desire only applies to adults, since only adults (i.e., those with the use of reason) can desire anything.
    No, it also says "persons".  This includes some folks [albeit rare] other than infants.
    Logged

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4065
    • Reputation: +2404/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #23 on: July 12, 2022, 09:44:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 12, 2022, 09:30:51 AM
    No, it also says "persons".  This includes some folks [albeit rare] other than infants.
    Probably they are implying the mentally retarded who grow up to physical maturity without ever achieving the use of reason.
    Logged

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4065
    • Reputation: +2404/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #24 on: July 12, 2022, 09:49:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 12, 2022, 09:26:45 AM
    Yes, and Scripture (Eph 4:5) teaches there is only one baptism and the catechism teaches there are three.
    .
    I don't know which catechism you read, but I did a quick search for the Baltimore Catechism and found this question. Is this what you mean?


    Quote
    Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?

    A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.


    It doesn't say "three baptisms". It says "three kinds of baptism". Note the word "baptism" in the singular.
    Logged

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14692
    • Reputation: +6056/-904
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #25 on: July 12, 2022, 10:10:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Yeti on July 12, 2022, 09:49:33 AM
    .
    I don't know which catechism you read, but I did a quick search for the Baltimore Catechism and found this question. Is this what you mean?



    It doesn't say "three baptisms". It says "three kinds of baptism". Note the word "baptism" in the singular.
    Since "one baptism" means "One kind of baptism", why doesn't "Three kinds of baptisms" mean three baptisms?


    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11371
    • Reputation: +6345/-1104
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #26 on: July 12, 2022, 10:32:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Yeti on July 12, 2022, 09:44:13 AM
    Probably they are implying the mentally retarded who grow up to physical maturity without ever achieving the use of reason.
    Maybe.  Bit that's not certain.  That's why the Church will need to clarify due to confusion among good willed Catholics...not to mention the complete modernization/bastardization of it in recent decades.  
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46453
    • Reputation: +27352/-5048
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #27 on: July 12, 2022, 11:34:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Yeti on July 12, 2022, 09:09:40 AM
    "Ladislausian Soteriology"???! So you propound a new theological idea and name it after yourself ... don't you see that this puts you in company that you, um, probably don't want to be in? Can't you just read the catechism book and accept it with a simple, childlike faith?

    It was meant as nothing more than a qualification that this view on soteriology differs somewhat from both Father Feeney's and that of the Dimond Brothers, or others.  So, as opposed to "Feeneyite" and "Dimondite".  I know that a lot of people lump them both into the same "Feeneyite" category, there there's a major difference between them.  Father Feeney believes in a votum that can provide justification but not salvation.  Dimonds reject that such can even be justified.

    It's unique in that I posit that souls other than unbaptized infants could end up in Limbo.  It's rooted in the Church Fathers and explains well a passage in St. Ambrose that others have written off as a contradiction (both St. Benedict Center and the Dimonds wrote it off and remarked that it would appear to be a contradiction).

    Dimonds would hold that they all go to hell.

    Father Feeney would hold that the justified would in fact be baptized somehow (even if miraculously and unknown to others), but he answers the hypothetical in case they weren't with "I don't know."

    I'm filling in the "I don't know" with my opinion based on all the evidence I put in that thread.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46453
    • Reputation: +27352/-5048
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #28 on: July 12, 2022, 11:39:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Yeti on July 12, 2022, 09:44:13 AM
    Probably they are implying the mentally retarded who grow up to physical maturity without ever achieving the use of reason.

    Probably, infants and those LIKE infants (aka those who are mentally retarded).  I recall, however, that St. Benedict Center made more of this passage than that.

    At one point St. Ambrose, in his (in)famous oration about Valentinian, posits that Valentinian may have been "washed" by his "piety and desire".  Elsewhere, however, St. Ambrose states that not even a good catechumen can be saved if he dies before receiving the Sacrament.  So this has puzzled many readers, written off as a contradiction or change of opinion.

    But elsewhere in the Valentinian oration, he states that not even the martyrs are crowned even if they are "washed".  So St. Ambrose is distinguishing between "washing" and "crowning" ... and these two reflect the two different effects of the Sacrament of Baptism -- 1) remission of sin and 2) reception of the Baptismal character.  So St. Ambrose holds that unbaptized martyrs (he did seem to believe there were some, while Father Feeney does not think so) receive a washing, a remission of sin, but not a "crowning".  That "crowning" (referred to by other Fathers as glory, and as making one fit for the "kingdom").  So this too is consistent with a distinction between justification (remission of sin) and salvation (ability to enter the beatific vision, i.e. enter the Kingdom).  Pope St. Siricius dogmatically taught that NO ONE can enter the Kingdom without the Sacrament even if they desired to receive it.

    There were theologians at the time of Trent who made the same distinction, holding, for instance, that infidels could be justified but not saved.  So the missing piece is, what happens in the next life to those who have been justified but not saved?
    Logged

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4717/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD
    « Reply #29 on: July 12, 2022, 07:44:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • The only possibility for BOD or BOB I see is just as a notion of the justification of souls who have already received baptism. A baptized Catholic in a state of sin shedding his blood for Christ would constitute a "Baptism of blood" as the act itself removes all sin and they go straight to heaven. With the "baptism of desire" being basically an act of perfect contrition.

    It's as was already pointed out, there is only one baptism per the teaching of Scripture, as well as four Councils; not three as some try to stretch BOD and BOB into two baptisms in their own right, when they are just accidents of the justification already received by the baptized. If you aren't baptized by water and the Holy Ghost (John 3:5), you aren't a member of the Body, and therefore, will not be saved.

    So this idea of Fr. Feeney of the unbaptized being justified but unable to enter heaven is plausible, but also is not really different than the "Dimondite" thesis that all unbaptized go to hell since Limbo is a part of hell minus the torment of fire.
    Logged
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]
    Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 11
    « previous next »