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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 11818 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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I'm curious, did Father Feeney ever pen anything on his view of whether Trent, in the Council or in its Catechism, taught BOD?

I know he said in Bread of Life that a BOD could justify, but not save. I'd love to know if he expressed his opinion on Trent or its catechism and whether they taught BOD or not.
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


Online St Giles

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Is there some controversy over BOD? I saw it mentioned recently in a 1910 copy of Catholic Belief and Practice ( https://archive.org/details/catholicbeliefpr00mcga/page/24/mode/2up ),  which reminded me that I thought I saw somewhere some discussion regarding it's validity, but I thought I was just getting it confused with EENS.
"Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
"Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
"Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


Offline Incredulous

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I recall a comment Father Feeney made in an interview that the modern versions of Trent had been edited.

I think this is going back to version published after 1850 or so.
"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

Offline Ladislaus

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I recall a comment Father Feeney made in an interview that the modern versions of Trent had been edited.

I think this is going back to version published after 1850 or so.

I suspect that he was speaking of the English translations which spun the import of the votum with the "except through" translation of "without".

He simply pointed out, correctly, that Trent was dealing with "justification" rather than "salvation", and there's solid theological precedent for that distinction.  XavierSem, who was anti-Feeneyite, cited some theologians active around the time of Trent (or shortly thereafter) who made the same distinction, with one of them holding, for instance, that infidels could be justified but not saved.  And the Catechism of Trent is also speaking of justification.

Offline Incredulous

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I suspect that he was speaking of the English translations which spun the import of the votum with the "except through" translation of "without".
Yes, that the Latin verse did not contain such meanings.
"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


Offline Stubborn

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From Bread of Life:

When the Council of Trent was discussing the problem of justification, it had to remember that it was possible for
one to have been justified in the Old Testament as well as in the New, and that is why the Council allows the
distinction between the actual reception of Baptism and the eager willingness to receive it. A man in the Old
Testament waiting and wanting Baptism to be instituted, and a man in the New Testament waiting and wanting
Baptism to be administered could both be justified.

It was possible to be justified in the Old Testament, but not to be saved. When those who died in the state of
justification, in the Old Testament, went out of this life, they did not go to Heaven. They went to what is
technically called the "Limbo of the Just" (appropriately referred to as "Hell" in the Apostles' Creed), until the
visible Body of Jesus led them to salvation on the day of Ascension. This is how important visibility is to the
notion of salvation, whatever it may mean in the realm of justification.

It is sinful to call men to salvation by offering them "Baptism of Desire." If this so-called substitute for Baptism of
Water were in any sense usual, or common, or likely – or even practical – Jesus Christ would never have told
His Apostles to go forth and baptize with water for the regeneration of the world.

I have said that a Baptism-of-Desire Catholic is not a member of the Church. He cannot be prayed for after death
as one of "the faithful departed." Were he to be revivified immediately after death – were he to come to life again
– he would not be allowed to receive Holy Eucharist or any of the other Sacraments until he was baptized by
water. Now, if he can get into the Church Triumphant without Baptism of Water, it is strange that he cannot get
into the Church Militant without it. It is an odd procedure for priests of the Church Militant to be shunting people
off to the Church Triumphant before these people have enrolled in the a Church Militant, which fights the good
fight and preserves the Faith.


*******
*******

The Council of Trent, in its second Canon on the subject of Baptism, declares, with the majestic authority of the
Church:
If anyone shall say that true and natural water is not of necessity in Baptism, and therefore shall turn those
words of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, "unless one be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (John 3:5), into some
metaphor, let him be anathema.

Therefore, I repeat, metaphorical water is forbidden under pain of heresy. And what is "Baptism of Desire," as
the Liberals teach it, but metaphorical water dishonestly substituting itself for the innocent requirement of Christ?
The same heretical theology that turned Baptism of Water into any dry desire one might have in the general
direction of Heaven, has also turned one Lord into one’s personal sincerity, and one Faith into the light of
invincible ignorance!


******
******

The Council of Trent, when treating of the Sacraments, anathematizes in most solemn canons those who say:
(1) that the Sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation; (2) that one can even get into a state of
justification without at least a resolve to receive them; (3) that they are all of equal dignity and necessity; (4) that
their purpose is mere support of Faith.

You do not have Faith by saying you have Faith! You do not have love by saying you have love! You cannot love
God if you do not love Jesus. And you cannot love Jesus if you do not know Him through His great gifts, His
Sacraments. If you do not know Him, I defy you to make a perfect act of love. You are calling it perfect love, and
at the same time you are refusing that which poured out of the heart of Jesus: Blood and water. You are refusing
the Blood of the Eucharist and the water of Baptism. To call that love is a blasphemy!
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline DecemRationis

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From Bread of Life:

When the Council of Trent was discussing the problem of justification, it had to remember that it was possible for
one to have been justified in the Old Testament as well as in the New, and that is why the Council allows the
distinction between the actual reception of Baptism and the eager willingness to receive it. A man in the Old
Testament waiting and wanting Baptism to be instituted, and a man in the New Testament waiting and wanting
Baptism to be administered could both be justified.

It was possible to be justified in the Old Testament, but not to be saved. When those who died in the state of
justification, in the Old Testament, went out of this life, they did not go to Heaven. They went to what is
technically called the "Limbo of the Just" (appropriately referred to as "Hell" in the Apostles' Creed), until the
visible Body of Jesus led them to salvation on the day of Ascension. This is how important visibility is to the
notion of salvation, whatever it may mean in the realm of justification.

It is sinful to call men to salvation by offering them "Baptism of Desire." If this so-called substitute for Baptism of
Water were in any sense usual, or common, or likely – or even practical – Jesus Christ would never have told
His Apostles to go forth and baptize with water for the regeneration of the world.

I have said that a Baptism-of-Desire Catholic is not a member of the Church. He cannot be prayed for after death
as one of "the faithful departed." Were he to be revivified immediately after death – were he to come to life again
– he would not be allowed to receive Holy Eucharist or any of the other Sacraments until he was baptized by
water. Now, if he can get into the Church Triumphant without Baptism of Water, it is strange that he cannot get
into the Church Militant without it. It is an odd procedure for priests of the Church Militant to be shunting people
off to the Church Triumphant before these people have enrolled in the a Church Militant, which fights the good
fight and preserves the Faith.


*******
*******

The Council of Trent, in its second Canon on the subject of Baptism, declares, with the majestic authority of the
Church:
If anyone shall say that true and natural water is not of necessity in Baptism, and therefore shall turn those
words of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, "unless one be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (John 3:5), into some
metaphor, let him be anathema.

Therefore, I repeat, metaphorical water is forbidden under pain of heresy. And what is "Baptism of Desire," as
the Liberals teach it, but metaphorical water dishonestly substituting itself for the innocent requirement of Christ?
The same heretical theology that turned Baptism of Water into any dry desire one might have in the general
direction of Heaven, has also turned one Lord into one’s personal sincerity, and one Faith into the light of
invincible ignorance!


******
******

The Council of Trent, when treating of the Sacraments, anathematizes in most solemn canons those who say:
(1) that the Sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation; (2) that one can even get into a state of
justification without at least a resolve to receive them; (3) that they are all of equal dignity and necessity; (4) that
their purpose is mere support of Faith.

You do not have Faith by saying you have Faith! You do not have love by saying you have love! You cannot love
God if you do not love Jesus. And you cannot love Jesus if you do not know Him through His great gifts, His
Sacraments. If you do not know Him, I defy you to make a perfect act of love. You are calling it perfect love, and
at the same time you are refusing that which poured out of the heart of Jesus: Blood and water. You are refusing
the Blood of the Eucharist and the water of Baptism. To call that love is a blasphemy!

Stubborn,

Thank you for the quotes. Great food for thought. 

DR
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline 2Vermont

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From Bread of Life:

When the Council of Trent was discussing the problem of justification, it had to remember that it was possible for
one to have been justified in the Old Testament as well as in the New, and that is why the Council allows the
distinction between the actual reception of Baptism and the eager willingness to receive it. A man in the Old
Testament waiting and wanting Baptism to be instituted, and a man in the New Testament waiting and wanting
Baptism to be administered could both be justified.

It was possible to be justified in the Old Testament, but not to be saved. When those who died in the state of
justification, in the Old Testament, went out of this life, they did not go to Heaven. They went to what is
technically called the "Limbo of the Just" (appropriately referred to as "Hell" in the Apostles' Creed), until the
visible Body of Jesus led them to salvation on the day of Ascension. This is how important visibility is to the
notion of salvation, whatever it may mean in the realm of justification.

This is interesting.  So, Father Feeney is saying that those with BOD, like those before Christ, go neither to Heaven nor to Hell, but to Limbo? I don't think I've ever seen this explanation before.  If so, he does not sound like he is denying BOD.
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


Offline DecemRationis

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This is interesting.  So, Father Feeney is saying that those with BOD, like those before Christ, go neither to Heaven nor to Hell, but to Limbo? I don't think I've ever seen this explanation before.  If so, he does not sound like he is denying BOD.

Yes. I'm inferring that Fr. Feeney would read the Council of Trent in the famous passage of Session VI, Chapter ("or the desire thereof") to be referring to BOD, and that he would concede the Catechism of Trent as referring to it. Otherwise, he's accepting the concept from another source. Very interesting. 
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline 2Vermont

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Yes. I'm inferring that Fr. Feeney would read the Council of Trent in the famous passage of Session VI, Chapter ("or the desire thereof") to be referring to BOD, and that he would concede the Catechism of Trent as referring to it. Otherwise, he's accepting the concept from another source. Very interesting.

I think justification vs salvation is an interesting distinction here. 
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

Offline Ladislaus

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This is interesting.  So, Father Feeney is saying that those with BOD, like those before Christ, go neither to Heaven nor to Hell, but to Limbo? I don't think I've ever seen this explanation before.  If so, he does not sound like he is denying BOD.

I'll have to look it up, but I saw a writeup from St. Benedict Center that cited, I think it was, the original Baltimore Catechism that had the same notion for infidels who for some reason might have died without actual sin, that they would go to a place "like Limbo."  I'll try to find that.  Dante put a couple of "noble infidels" (e.g. Saladin) in Limbo.

I've actually articulated the same type of position which makes sense of what otherwise would appear to be a contradiction in St. Ambrose.

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/patristic-support-for-ladilausian-soteriology/


Offline 2Vermont

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I'll have to look it up, but I saw a writeup from St. Benedict Center that cited, I think it was, the original Baltimore Catechism that had the same notion for infidels who for some reason might have died without actual sin, that they would go to a place "like Limbo."  I'll try to find that.  Dante put a couple of "noble infidels" (e.g. Saladin) in Limbo.

I've actually articulated the same type of position which makes sense of what otherwise would appear to be a contradiction in St. Ambrose.

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/patristic-support-for-ladilausian-soteriology/
I thought I found that reference in the Catechism of Pius X, but when I went back to find it again, I couldn't!  I know I saw it!
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

Offline Stubborn

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This is interesting.  So, Father Feeney is saying that those with BOD, like those before Christ, go neither to Heaven nor to Hell, but to Limbo? I don't think I've ever seen this explanation before.  If so, he does not sound like he is denying BOD.
That's not what he's saying. All he is saying is OT saints went to limbo, not to heaven or hell. Which is to say they died justified and went to Limbo, whereas the common belief is that the BOD person goes straight to heaven.

He says: The problem Trent had to deal with was - "A man in the Old Testament waiting and wanting Baptism to be instituted, and a man in the New Testament waiting and wanting Baptism to be administered could both be justified."

However, Trent cleared up whatever confusion there may have been when they stated; since the promulgation of the Gospel, justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration.

Which is to say, per Trent, Fr. Feeney was simply mistaken when he said a NT man waiting for and wanting baptism could be justified. 
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline 2Vermont

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That's not what he's saying. All he is saying is OT saints went to limbo, not to heaven or hell. Which is to say they died justified and went to Limbo, whereas the common belief is that the BOD person goes straight to heaven.
Isn't that what I said?
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

Offline Stubborn

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Isn't that what I said?
ya, I guess so lol
I deserve a :facepalm: for that.

I was more trying to point out that he was mistaken in that regard.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse