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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 22220 times)

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Never mind, I get it now - but it is still clearly, Trent's teaching.

Since, per Trent, it is infallible that:
1) there is no justification without the the sacrament of baptism (laver of regeneration), 
2) or the desire for the sacrament of baptism, and
3) since we are bound to accept this and Trent's inclusion of John 3:5 as it is written,
4) there is no other means for those unbaptized to obtain justification because Trent infallibly teaches that
1) there is no justification without the the sacrament of baptism (laver of regeneration)

Why is it not clear that #2 condemns the idea of a BOD?
It's crystal-clear. I don't get how people are dividing the sacrament of baptism from a desire for it just because the word "or" is used in an inclusive sense. We know that a forced baptism, against the desire of an individual, is invalid. So why would the desire in itself suffice without the sacrament of baptism (laver of regeneration)?

It's illogical.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter

This is another thing - the catechisms are not the OUM. If they are the UOM, then why not use the NO Catechism?
 
Cathechisms are not, by and in themselves, the OUM. But they can express the OUM under certain conditions, and I think their discussion of BOD qualifies. I agree, for example, with this:

Quote
The old standard Baltimore Catechism…[taught] faith to Catholics of an entire nation…Others, like the Roman Catechism or the Catechism of the Council of Trent have had worldwide popularity and use. The unanimous teaching of these catechisms can rightly be considered by the theologians as an indication of the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Catholic Church. The doctrine that is universally or unanimously proposed in these doctrinal books, in such a way that it is presented to practically all of the Catholics of the world as revealed truth, is certainly a verity taught and exposed infallibly in the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Catholic Church.


The Concept of Sacred Theology, Rev. J.C. Fenton, 1941


"Why not the NO Catechism?" Why not when it expresses the OUM? 










Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Never mind, I get it now - but it is still clearly, Trent's teaching.

Since, per Trent, it is infallible that:
1) there is no justification without the the sacrament of baptism (laver of regeneration), 
2) or the desire for the sacrament of baptism, and
3) since we are bound to accept this and Trent's inclusion of John 3:5 as it is written,
4) there is no other means for those unbaptized to obtain justification because Trent infallibly teaches that
1) there is no justification without the the sacrament of baptism (laver of regeneration)

Why is it not clear that #2 condemns the idea of a BOD?

Not clear on what you're saying there.

I'm not calling you a heretic or saying I do not think it permissible to take a "Feeneyite" view. As I said, I once held it. But I now think BOD to be an expression of the OUM. It's fine to me if we differ.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter

You were alleging contradiction based on a false dichotomy, where both the opposites were strawmen of my position.

My contention regarding the inerrancy of the Magisterium contradicts my contention that BoD is an error.  [Assumed premise:  BoD was taught by the Magisterium.]

I never said that I believed the Magisterium to be absolutely inerrant.

I just said that the Magisterium cannot become so corrupt that it's harmful to souls, certainly not to the point of requiring Catholics in conscience to sever communion with the Holy See and the hierarchy over it.

Then I stated that while I disagree with BoD, I do not characterize it as any kind of error (just a speculation with which i disagree) ... EXCEPT when it's articulated in its extreme Pelagian form that undermines EENS dogma.  And the Church has absolutely never taught that latter expression of the amorphous "BoD".

With all that said, I do not concede your premise that the Magisterium has taught even the non-extreme form of BoD ... but that ventures off into a separate argument altogether which has been tangential to the main point of contention.

Now, while I do not hold the Magisterium to be absolutely inerrant, had the Council of Trent taught Baptism of Desire clearly and set out what must be believed about it, I would of course have immediately accepted that.  I don't believe that an Ecuмenical Council can err at all, and Vatican II could not have taught error had it been legitimate.  What I had in mind was something along the lines of that curious letter by Pope Innocent regarding the "unbaptized priest".

But I reject the assertion that Trent taught a "Baptism of Desire" in a way that includes the proposition that those who die without the Sacrament could be saved (enter the Kingdom and the Beatific Vision) without the Sacrament.  But I will not digress into what we've already been discussing.

I see no contradiction anywhere.

What's strange though is that you started promoting the sedevacantists (who would agree with me in calling your position heretical) as if they were your allies in this contention, and started basically promoting their position that the Magisterium is inerrant, while at the same time believing yourself that it can be corrupted badly ... such as you assert of Vatican II, along with the New Mass.  That seems dishonest.  You were promoting a position that you yourself do not believe to convince me (or others) into believing it, so that your allegation of a contradiction could stand.  :confused:

We've done done this dance about a dozen times in the last few days, and it's almost turning into a personal feud. If it's necessary, it's necessary, but it's not something I want to do. In about a dozen posts, probably more, I've made my position clear. I'm done with it for now.

But as to the last part. I addressed that already a bit, but for the last time: I didn't invoke them as "allies," or "promote" their position. They are your "allies," and they damn you (on BOD). They hold the same view of indefectibility, and they'd level your heretic charge back at you on BOD using the same criterion of indefectibility. That's the point of my mention of them.

Peace, bro? For now at least. 

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
It's crystal-clear. I don't get how people are dividing the sacrament of baptism from a desire for it just because the word "or" is used in an inclusive sense. We know that a forced baptism, against the desire of an individual, is invalid. So why would the desire in itself suffice without the sacrament of baptism (laver of regeneration)?

It's illogical.

On the surface, "cannot without the laver or the desire" is ambiguous.

I cannot write a letter without paper or a pen.  We cannot have the wedding without the bride or the groom.  In both these expressions, BOTH are in fact required.  And the Latin there is no different in this regard.

I cannot write a note without a pen or a pencil.  I can't buy anything at the store without cash or a debit card.  In both these expressions, either one would suffice.

That's because the expression WITHOUT A OR B can either be understood as

CANNOT WITHOUT (A OR B) -- BoD meaning
or
CANNOT WITHOUT A OR WITHOUT B -- non-BoD meaning

Unlike in math or computer programming there aren't any parentheses to guide us.

Now, in the two sets of samples above, the meaning was obvious to us.  Why?  Because we understood from the context which one was meant.

Now, Trent could have disambiguated the expression inline by using an expression like "or else" or "or at least" ... as it did for the Sacrament of Confession.

For Confession, Trent taught that the Confession was necessary for remission of grave sin (after a post-Baptismal fall) saltem in voto ("at least in desire") and later that sin can be remitted vel sacramento vel sacramenti voto ("either by the sacrament or by the intention [to receive the] sacrament").  Note that the use of vel in Latin means that the two are not mutually exclusive (vs. if they had used aut ... aut) ... since it's actually necessary to have the intention to receive the Sacrament also when actually receiving the Sacrament.  This is absolutely clear.  Trent could have used this same expression for Baptism if that's what it intended ... vel lavacro vel ejusdem voto or lavacro aut saltem ejusdem voto.  This would have made it absolutely clear.

Trent simply used [sine] lavacro aut ejusdem voto.  Now, normally, in a positively-worded epression, aut would tend to imply an exclusive or, "one OR the other (but not both)" but, as we have seen, that would be incorrect, since as with Confession, the votum is ALSO required with the Sacrament AND because when flipped around into the double-negative form of "cannot without A or B", it would simply be an emphatic way of saying that EITHER without A OR without B (if EITHER one is absent), i.e. that both do not have to be missing.  So it goes back again to whether Trent means WITHOUT (A OR B) -- in which sense an exclusive OR would be theologically incorrect -- or WITHOUT A OR WITHOUT B -- in which an exclusive OR would not be incorrect, since the OR isn't between A OR B, but rather between WITHOUT A OR WITHOUT B.

So one piece of evidence in favor of the WITHOUT A OR WITHOUT B (non-BoD sense) is that the exclusive or aut when used in the expression (A OR B) as in WITHOUT (A OR B) would be theologically incorrect.  Now, exclusivity is not ALWAYS indicated by the aut, so this is not conclusive.

So why would Trent use an ambiguous expression rather than an obviously clear expression as it did with Confession?  Well as we saw, it's context or meaning that disambiguates otherwise-ambiguous grammar.

But what to me completely disambiguates the expression is the Scriptural "proof text" that follows this teaching.

... justification cannot happen without the Laver or the votum as it is written, "Unless one be born again of water AND the Holy Spirit, it is not possible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Trent had just finished explaining that the Holy Spirit inspires all the dispositions for Baptism up to and including the votum to receveive the Sacrament.  So there is an analogy being made, similar to the kind you'd see on an SAT test.

laver:votum::water:Holy Spirit -- So the laver corresponds to the "water" in the citation from Our Lord.  That's precisely why the Fathers at Trent used this very descriptive word (which connotes water) rather than just, say, "the Sacrament," as they did for Confession.  Then the votum would likewise correspond to the Holy Spirit, since the action of the Holy Spirit inspires the votum in the soul.

So to claim that this means the laver or else the votum would be to claim that the Fathers taught the absurdity that "Justification can happen with EITHER the water OR the votum, as the Lord taught that BOTH the water AND the Holy Spirit are necessary."  So that Scriptural proof text that the Fathers offer for this teaching immediately disambiguates the expression into meaning that BOTH are required for justification.

Finally, the Fathers could simply have taught this in the positive form, that justification CAN happen with the Sacrament OR at least the votum for it.  But they did not.  Instead they taught that it CANNOT happen without these.  This strongly implies that these are both necessary causes of justification, but not by themselves sufficient.

We find one final clue in the Canons.  At one point the Fathers anathematize the proposition that the Sacrament can justify even when the recipient does not "will" to receive it, and this demonstrates that it is not possible to say that aut has the exclusive sense, where EITHER the Sacrament OR the DESIRE would suffice.  To read "Laver or votum" that way would imply an anathematized proposition. 

Now, votum is linguistically related to the word for "to will", so it means to will or to intend.  So translating votum as "desire" is very misleading ... and IMO deliberately so.  It waters down the meaning so that any kind of "emotional desire" would suffice.  Even Catholic Encyclopedia states that "desire" is a totally inadequate term, and that votum encompasses all the necessary predispositions for Baptism.

votum is also the root word of our word "vow" and is also used to mean "vow" in Latin.  That is much stronger than desire.  When someone gets engaged, that person might "desire" to marry his prospective spouse, and has every intention to do so, but if he walks out seconds before pronouncing the marriage vows, the couple were never married.  So the word "vow" is practically inseparable with actually carrying out the act itself.  So, for Confession, if you just think, "I want to go to Confession." that's not quite the will or intention to go.  It has to be more resolute, along the lines of "I'm going to Confession when the priest comes into town on Sunday." or the penitent calls the priest to schedule a Confession.  That's why Trent adds the expression "in due time" to the "intention" to confess, since the votum does not require that the penitent run to the rectory and knock on the door at 3AM to wake the priest immediately.

But this votum has been deliberately watered down in translation to "desire".  Latin does have a word for "desire", by the way.  But if you translate votum as "firm resolution to receive the Sacrament of Baptism", it's much harder to ascribe salvation by votum to various infidels (Jєωs, pagans, etc.).  What Jєω or infidel ever had a firm resolution or intention to receive the Sacrament of Baptism?  So this very term "Baptism of Desire" is anathema and needs to be discarded.  It also does imply the "three Baptisms" nonsense, which verbatim denies the Creed's reference to belief in "ONE Baptism".  St. Robert Bellarmine very carefully stated that one received Baptism in voto, holding that this was simply a different MODE of receiving the one Baptism, so his in re vs. in voto.  Not quite sure which of these would apply to "Baptism of Blood"?  Oh, that's another problem with holding that Trent taught Baptism of Desire.  Where's Baptism of Blood?  If justification cannot happen without either the actual Sacrament of water or the Baptism of Desire, then what is Baptism of Blood?  This teaching would positively rule out a Baptism of Blood as a distinct thing.  It would have to reduce to one of the other two.  So to hold "Three Baptisms" would be heretical based on this teaching from Trent ... if interpreted the BoD way.  Baptism of Blood would likely just reduce to Baptism of Desire.  So then St. Alphonsus' contention that BoB is distinct in that it has a "quasi ex opere operato" effect would have to be completely discarded.  And, returning to St Robert Bellarmine, he limited Baptism in voto ... so BIV would be a more suitable expression than the noxious and heterodox BOD ... to catechumens.  Catechumens belonged to the visible Church through their profession of Christian faith and would have the votum for Baptism in the concrete sense of "I'm signed up and scheduled to be baptized next Easter."

Yet another curious problem with BIV (among many) is the following.  Some hold that BoD is only "in play" if the catechumen is cut off by death from the Sacrament.  But why?  Well, otherwise, the Sacrament becomes a mere formality for those catechumens who are already justified before the Sacrament.  When approaching the Sacrament, the catechumen asks for the gift of faith.  And the Sacrament remits Original Sin.  But does it really if the Original Sin is already wiped out by prior justification in voto?  Now, let's say the catechumen has entered a state of justification prior to actual reception of the Sacrament, so Original Sin is wiped out.  But then the catechumen subsequently commits a mortal sin.  Does the eventual Baptism work more like Confession then?  Initial justification is defined by Trent as the spiritual "rebirth" and then "spiritual rebirth" is defined as completely wiping out all sin and all punishment due to sin.  That creates some major problems for St. Alphonsus' [unproven] contention [aka speculation] that BoD (BiV) does not remit all the temporal punishment due to sin.  But then this catechumen would have experienced his rebirth prior to Baptism.  Would he then experience a second "rebirth" with a subsequent initial justification?

BoD is so deeply fraught with difficulties that I don't see how it's even tenable as a workable theory, much less has it been defined by the Church.

But even with all this, IF that's what Trent intended (but expressed so sloppily when it could have made it extremely clear by following the exact same grammatical expression as with Confession), Trent would be saying that the votum suffices for justification but does not declare that it would suffice for entering the Kingdom of Heaven.  We saw earlier how Pope St. Siricius taught that each and every one of those who desired to receive the Sacrament would forfeit Life in the Kingdom if they departed life without the actual Sacrament.  St. Ambrose, cited as a proponent of "BoD" taught that these (along with the unbaptized martyrs) would be "washed" but now "crowned" (aka would not enter the Kingdom).