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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 22231 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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So, people claim that Catholics MUST believe in BoD.  OK.  Well, what must I believe about it? 

Lad,

Baptism of desire is a shorthand, a mere phrase for a concept taught by the Magisterium since Trent at least for sure (so I say it's OUM), what appears in the Council of Trent and in the Catechism of Trent, and probably every catechism since then (English, Irish, American, Italian, etc.) - although you, against the moral unanimity and consensus of every pope, bishop and theologian since Trent, reject the teaching and deny it's in the Council. 

Here's the concept or teaching, which Msgr. Fenton says is "the revealed teaching" - it's this which you must believe per Fenton as a teaching of the OUM (and arguably - I say that for your sake - more solemnly taught at the Council of Trent - although only you and other Feeneyites argue it):

Quote

The statement that the Church (not merely the “soul” or the “body” of the Church) is necessary for salvation with the necessity of means in such a way that no man can be saved unless he is within the Church either in re or by either an explicit or an implicit votum must be considered as an accurate statement of the revealed teaching on the Church’s necessity for eternal salvation and as the standard terminology of most modern theologians on this subject.



http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecuмenism/members.htm

Tell me if I am mistaken, but you reject the concept and say one must be in the Church in re and receive the sacrament of baptism to be saved?



Lad,

Baptism of desire is a shorthand, a mere phrase for a concept taught by the Magisterium since Trent at least for sure (so I say it's OUM), what appears in the Council of Trent and in the Catechism of Trent, and probably every catechism since then (English, Irish, American, Italian, etc.) - although you, against the moral unanimity and consensus of every pope, bishop and theologian since Trent, reject the teaching and deny it's in the Council. 

The Council of Trent mentions justification, not salvation.  

Also, you seem to be completely ignoring any contradictions in/between catechisms mentioned right in this thread.  Why?


Online Stubborn

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What I don't fully understand is how after all this time, faithful Catholic people are able to convince themselves that Trent left a loop hole, or was not clear, or could contradict Scripture, or heaven help us, taught a BOD.

On Justification, Trent clearly states that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament. What else needs to be said? And if in the future a council defines it again, what words would they use to clarify that which is already clear?


 

Offline Ladislaus

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Baptism of desire is a shorthand, a mere phrase for a concept taught by the Magisterium since Trent at least for sure (so I say it's OUM), what appears in the Council of Trent and in the Catechism of Trent, and probably every catechism since then (English, Irish, American, Italian, etc.) - although you, against the moral unanimity and consensus of every pope, bishop and theologian since Trent, reject the teaching and deny it's in the Council. 

Nonsense.  In the Magisterium, there's a reference in Trent to the votum for Baptism being required, being necessary for justification, with lack of clarity about whether it suffices for justification.  "Cannot happen without" refers to a necessary condition, but Trent did not clarify whether it's sufficient.  And no indication about whether it suffices for salvation ... and those two terms are clearly distinguished by theologians active around the time of Trent (and even has its roots in Sacred Scripture, St. Paul).

Catechism of Trent does not teach "BoD" either.  It simply states that Baptism may be deferred in adults (in favor of their being properly prepared) because there isn't the same dangers for them as for instants on account of their desire/intention to receive Baptism.  This does NOT state that if an adult were to die before Baptism, that intention would suffice for their salvation.  That is totally read into the Catechism by the BoDers.

That's blatant lie that there's "moral unanimity and consensus of every pope."  You can literally count on one hand where the subject is raised by any Pope.  Every pope, my posterior.

And this is rich, coming from you.  Every pope, bishop, and theologian for the past 60 years has upheld and supported the teachings of Vatican II and have upheld the acceptability of the NOM.

Offline Ladislaus

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You still fail to cite where the Magisterium defines what must be believed about BoD, other than that there's this votum somehow related to justification.  Then you hypocritically cite Fenton, who upheld the infallible safety of the Magisterium, as an authority.  Regardless all he's saying is that the Church's necessity for salvation is revealed (whether in re or in voto).  This means that you must hold that it's least necessary in voto, not that it must be believed that in voto belonging to the Church suffices for salvation.  So you twist the meaning of the quote.  Nor does the quote have anything directly to do with Baptism, but with the Church.

I believe that some of the criteria for membership in the Church can be achieved in voto.  So, for instance, one does not lose membership in the Church for failing to be subject to the Supreme Pontiff during, say, a time of sede vacante, or if one has been unjustly excommunicated.  I also believe that someone can belong to the Church in voto in the sense that if you have someone converted by a missionary who believes in the basic mysteries of the faith and who is baptized, even if he had not gotten to explicitly believing in the Church and submitting to the Church's teaching authority, that intention could be there in voto.

That some of the effects of Baptism can be had in voto, I agree.  That all of the effects of Baptism can be had in voto, I deny.  In fact, EVERYBODY denies that the character of Baptism can be had in voto.  And MEMBERSHIP in the Church is not achieved without the Sacrament.

So this reduces to a discussion of what are the ramifications of not having the Sacramental character and not having membership in the Church.