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Author Topic: Father Feeney on Trent (Session VI, Chapter 4) or the Catechism of Trent on BOD  (Read 18928 times)

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Offline bodeens

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Agreed.  Unfortunately the notion of "implicit BoD" has been morphed into being used synonymously with "implicit faith" ... and I do hold Rewarder God theory to be objectively heretical even if not condemned yet with the note of heresy by the Church.  In recent years, some, like Jorge Begoglio, have taken it even a step further, alleging that even atheists may be saved.

I believe the farthest that "implicit" can be taken would be --

EXPLICIT:  I intend to receive the Sacrament of Baptism.
IMPLICIT:  I intend to become a Catholic .. with the implicit intention to be baptized.

This has been stretched into multiple degrees of separation from explicit however, to where a lot of people interpret it as --

I am a good guy, which implicitly contains wanting to do good, which implicitly contains wanting to do the will of God, which implicitly contains wanting to become a Catholic, which implicitly contains wanting to be baptized.
"If I knew heaven existed I would want to go, therefore..." Is the standard modern definition.

At the time of St. Alphonsus etc implicit was probably defined as you did but was rapidly beginning to expand, given the ideas a lot of priests in the New World were getting or teaching natives (Trinitarian theology errors immediately come to mind but it seems some of these boiled down to linguistic nuance).
Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
Francis is Pope.
NO is a good Mass.
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Offline trad123

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Lots of bizarre things about "de presbytero non baptizato".  Apart from the fact that how can you have an unbaptized priest, Innocent "asserts without hesitation that ... this priest [went to heaven]" ... continuing to call him a priest, and somehow declaring that this man went to Heaven.  I guess we should immediately canonize this priest, since we have Innocent III's authority for it.  Then he "asserts without hesitation" [that this priest is in Heaven] "based on the authority of Augustine and Ambrose".  He does not teach it, but rather "asserts" (as if he were in a debate and opining in favor of it) nor is this letter addressed to the universal Church, and does not teach it by the authority of Sts Peter and Paul, i.e. his papal teaching authority, but on the authority of St. Augustine and St. Ambrose.  So now Augustine and Ambrose have the authority to define a dogma?  Of course, he's mistaken in appealing to that authority, since St. Augustine never taught it with authority, but rather clearly indicated that it was his own speculation, and retracted it later in life, and St. Ambrose didn't teach it at all (that's a misreading of his oration on Valentinian).  In a similar letter, Innocent proclaimed that the consecration at Mass would be valid if a priest merely thought the words but did not say them out loud.

Not only does this "de presbyter non baptizato" not meet the notes of infallibility, where the Pope is teaching something with HIS Apostolic authority, the authority of St. Peter, and teaching something to the Universal Church, that must be believed.  He's leaning on the authority of St. Augustine and St. Ambrose, who have no authority to define doctrine for the Church, and is clearly opining ("assert" to does not mean to teach authoritatively, but merely to argue or to opine).







http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Baptism_of_Desire.html



Quote
Pope Innocent III


   To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of Holy Mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine's City of God where among other things it is written, "Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes." Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned. (Denzinger 388)








https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/one-universal-church-of-the-faithful/msg687079/#msg687079





Council of Trent


1545-1563

http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm




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Canons on the Sacraments in General:

(Canon 4)

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.





St. Bernard Of Clairvaux

On Baptism And The Office of the Bishops,

Pages 159 - 160


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879071672/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0879071672&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />



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8. It would be hard, believe me, to tear me away from these two pillars--I mean Augustine and Ambrose. I own to going along with them in wisdom or in error, for I too believe that a person can be saved by faith alone, through the desire to receive the sacrament, but only if such a one is forestalled by death or prevented by some other insuperable force from implementing this devout desire. Perhaps this was why the Savior, when he said: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, took care not to repeat 'whoever is not baptized', but only, whoever does not believe will be condemned, imitating strongly that faith is sometimes sufficient for salvation and that without it nothing suffices.  

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


Offline Ladislaus

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Yes, not only are these formulations of salvation by "faith alone" clearly erroneous, but the different sources are in contradiction with one another on quite a few points.

Offline DecemRationis

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You wouldn't need to twist his words to see he teaches BOD, you would just need to read the next paragraph (#13).  Here, he states that Soave thought the fathers didn't even require an implicit desire of baptism to be justified.  St. Alphonsus rejects this, then goes on to teach implicit BOD as certain.


St. Alphonsus also understood the Coucil of Trent to be teaching BOD in Session 6, Chapter 4 (St. Robert Bellarmine understood it the same way).  It's one thing to say Trent didn't teach BOD, and that this means something like "without a spoke or wheel".  It's quite another for anyone to say it so clearly doesn't teach BODr that it can't be misunderstood to be teaching it, when this would mean the two greatest Doctors of the Church after Trent misunderstood something so clear that it can't be misunderstood.

- Theologia Moralis, Lib.VI, Tract.II, Cap.I, no. 95-97

Refreshing common sense.
Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline Ladislaus

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Refreshing common sense.

Why does it matter to you what St. Alphonsus believed?  You hold that an Ecuмenical Council could teach grave error to the Church, that the Magisterium can become thoroughly corrupt, and that the Church could promulgate a Rite of Mass that's harmful to souls.


Offline Stubborn

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You wouldn't need to twist his words to see he teaches BOD, you would just need to read the next paragraph (#13).  Here, he states that Soave thought the fathers didn't even require an implicit desire of baptism to be justified.  St. Alphonsus rejects this, then goes on to teach implicit BOD as certain.
No, this is not true. You read meanings into words which the words do not say, while failing to advert to what the words do say.


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13. ....But, Pallavicini says that this is a mere dream of Soave:  for the theologians of Trent could not have adduced the example of Cornelius or of the good thief in defense of such an opinion, when everyone knew that the obligation of Baptism did not commence till after the death of the Saviour, and after the promulgation of the Gospel.

So according to St. Alphonsus, he agrees with Pallavicini in that using St. Dismas, the Good Thief, and St. Cornellius as examples of salvation without the sacrament is wrong because the obligation to receive the sacrament was not yet instituted.


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13. .... Besides, who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance and of the Eucharist.  He who wishes the whole, wishes every part of that whole, and all the means for its attainment.  In order to be justified without Baptism, an infidel must love God above all things and must have a universal will to observe the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive Baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament.  For it is certain that to such desire is ascribed the spiritual regeneration of a person who has not been baptized, and the remission of sins to baptized persons who have contrition, is likewise ascribed to the explicit or implicit desire of sacramental absolution.

This is also in agreement with the decrees of Trent and is no endorsement of salvation without the sacrament.
 
Since he is explaining Trent, it is obvious that he is speaking of a catechumen who is about to be received into the Church through the reception of the sacraments, lest he would not include "...Penance and of the Eucharist." after Baptism.


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14.  In the fourth canon the words licet omnia singulis necessaria non sint, were afterwards inserted. By this canon it was intended to condemn Luther, who asserts that none of the sacraments is absolutely necessary for salvation, because as has been already said, he ascribed all salvation to faith, and nothing to the efficacy of the sacraments.

Here again, he echoes Trent in condemnation of Luther and everyone who claims that salvation is possible without the sacrament.
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline DecemRationis

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Why does it matter to you what St. Alphonsus believed? 

Why do I always have to explain things to you? “Refreshing common sense” from In Principio.

You hold that an Ecuмenical Council could teach grave error to the Church, that the Magisterium can become thoroughly corrupt, and that the Church could promulgate a Rite of Mass that's harmful to souls.

Because it (they) did.

Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

Offline Ladislaus

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But if an Ecuмenical Council can teach serious error, all the Popes and bishops and theologians can teach serious error for >60 years, etc. ... how is it that you cite the St. Alphonsus as an "authority"?  If these previous could be wrong, then why couldn't St. Alphonsus be wrong, and his is just another opinion?

This kind of selective filtering of authorities is common with the pro-BoDers.

1) they'll assert that the Church Fathers unanimously believed in BoD (as a number of Trad BoD apologists have claimed) ... whereas at least 5-6 Church Fathers explicitly rejected it, compared to the 2 that allegedly held it (St. Augustine as a tentative opinion later retracted, and St. Ambrose arguably  at best).  For some reason, the anti-BoD Fathers are ignored or "filtered out", whereas Augustine and Ambrose are cited as ultimate authorities.  What were these other Fathers, chopped liver?  At least Karl Rahner had the honesty to admit that the Fathers generally had no use for a BoD, and to the extent they did limited it to formal catechumens.  Patristic scholar Jurgens stated that not only is there no evidence that any notion of exceptions to Baptism existed among the Fathers, but, rather, the opposite, so much so that it might be considered revealed that there's no salvation without the actual Sacrament of Baptism.

2) BoDers will beat Feeneyites over the head with citations from St. Thomas, but often at the same time suddenly forget his "authority" when he taught that there can be no salvation without explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation.

These examples of dishonest authority filtering demonstrate confirmation bias, that something other than objectivity drives the belief in R&R.

So, similarly, you'll claim that we have to accept the pre-Vatican II theologians on BoD, but then it's OK to reject the post-Vatican II theologians who unanimously teach that Vatican II and the NOM are Catholic.  What happened to the OUM in the early 1960s?


Online 2Vermont

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This citation above from St. Alphonsus is obviously in error:

Trent did not teach that "no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire of it.'".  Trent taught that no one can be JUSTIFIED.
So that's already an error right out of the gate.

It's interesting also that he (wrongly) cites "de presbytero non baptizto" as if it were a dogmatic source.  Yet that source clearly indicates that someone who's saved by BoD would go to Heaven immediately and without delay.  But St. Alphonsus said that this was not true, but held that temporal punishment due to sin remained after BoD.  Well, if that's a dogmatic source, then St. Alphonsus' theory is heretical.

Finally, he speaks of people who have BoD as being regenerated.  Problem with that is that Trent defines "regeneration" at initial justification (a rebirth) as wiping out all sin and punishment due to sin, so that no stain or guilt of sin remains or any punishment due to sin.  So that too renders St. Alphonsus theory that temporal punishment remains after BoD heretical.

As per usual, BoD results in nothing but confusion and chaos and contradiction and error.

I supposed than in his "spiritual" works, St. Alphonsus was just blatantly lying when he wrote that for those born among the infidels "ALL are lost".  Or perhaps it was just pious hyperbole.

Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”


He also speaks of "justified" in paragraph 13, so he even seems to contradict himself:

In order to be justified without Baptism, an infidel must love God above all things and must have a universal will to observe the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive Baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament. For it is certain that to such desire is ascribed the spiritual regeneration of a person who has not been baptized, and the remission of sins to baptized persons who have contrition, is likewise ascribed to the explicit or implicit desire of sacramental absolution.

Online 2Vermont

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Since he is explaining Trent, it is obvious that he is speaking of a catechumen who is about to be received into the Church through the reception of the sacraments, lest he would not include "...Penance and of the Eucharist." after Baptism.

This is an interesting point given he also says this right after that part:

He who wishes the whole, wishes every part of that whole, and all the means for its attainment.

Are we to deduce that an infidel who dies with the desire for baptism also had the desire for confession and eucharist?  That really seems far-fetched indeed.

Offline Stubborn

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This is an interesting point given he also says this right after that part:

He who wishes the whole, wishes every part of that whole, and all the means for its attainment.
Ya, it all makes sense as long as you don't lose sight of what he says in #12.

I believe it is either a misquote, or St. Alphonsus is mistaken in the quote:
Quote
Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”
The reason I say that is because Session 6, Chapter 4 says nothing of the sort - which means it is a misquote - whether or not this is intentional who knows? But it is blatantly obvious that that quote is not from Session 6, Chapter 4.

6:4 states that justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof. There is no mention of salvation in that chapter.

But either way, to say as the quote says: "no one is saved without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it," is to say no one is saved without the sacrament. To add "or the desire for it" is to say neither is anyone saved with the desire for the sacrament. 



"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


Offline DigitalLogos

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But either way, to say as the quote says: "no one is saved without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it," is to say no one is saved without the sacrament. To add "or the desire for it" is to say neither is anyone saved with the desire for the sacrament.
Right. It's the same as if one were talking about the Sacrament of matrimony, where there can be no marriage unless there is bridegroom or bride. Can you have marriage with a bridegroom only? Or a bride only? No, both are required. It comes right back to the core issue here: with baptism, you cannot be saved with the laver of regeneration but no desire for it. And vice versa, you cannot be saved with a desire for it but no laver of regeneration.

That's why I postulate that BOD and BOB are both accidental causes of the justification already formally introduced by the actual Sacrament of water baptism. BOD is really nothing more than perfect contrition, and BOB is nothing more than Holy martyrdom. Both have a similar effect as baptism: they justify and remit sin by the merit of their action. But you must have already been baptized for it to have any effect at all.

Quote
Pope Eugene IV, “Cantate Domino,” Council of Florence, ex cathedra:  “No one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

(My emphasis)
"Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

"In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

"A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
with baptism, you cannot be saved with the laver of regeneration but no desire for it.
And this teaching of Trent must also be understood in the context of history and the error they were combating at the time - forced baptisms.  Trent was saying, no, a forced baptism doesn't work.  If a person receives a valid baptism formula, but has no desire, then the sacrament is invalid.

The idea that Trent would spend so little time on a complex matter of BOD, and that it meant to "teach" BOD by way of 1 phrase (not even a complete sentence) is retarded.  Had Trent wanted to address the topic, you'd expect a separate session, or at least a few paragraphs with quotes from Church Fathers, etc.

Also, what sense does it make that Trent would "teach" BOD, but not discuss BOB?  It seems logical that both of these would be discussed together, since most Church Fathers who wrote about them, did so in tandem.

Offline Ladislaus

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He also speaks of "justified" in paragraph 13, so he even seems to contradict himself:

There are some other problems with St. Alphonsus' thinking.  He holds that if someone is saved by BoD, then temporal punishment for sin can still remain.

But that contradicts what Pope Innocent taught on the matter (so, in holding such letter to be de fide), that would make his opinion there heretical.  That Pope claimed that the one individual who he confidently "asserts" is in Heaven (not just that he COULD have been saved), but would go to heaven immediately and without delay.

Also, Trent clearly teaches that initial justification is a rebirth or regeneration, and then defines rebirth/regeneration as a COMPLETE renewal of the individual, wiping out all traces of sin or punishment due to sin.  This was highlighted by the Dimond Brothers, and they are quite correct.

BoD theory is fraught with contradiction and confusion, with wide ranges of theories about what it does, what it doesn't do, etc. etc.  To me that's a clear indication that it's never been taught by the Church.  You cannot believe in something without knowing what that something is.  I can't believe in a phrase "BoD", but can only assent intellectually to various propositions.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
I believe it is either a misquote, or St. Alphonsus is mistaken in the quote:
It's probably a misquote, whether purposefully or accidentally, I can't say.  Most people on this site don't really understand the difference between salvation/justification, so I could see the scenario where a translator would replace "justified" with "saved".